Pistol HFT Winter/Spring - Round 2

Cooperman · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 201 Location: Hemel Hempstead

Open Sights

Sean Cameron...............................187 1st
Mike Carney...................................145 2nd
David Edwards................................144 3rd
Tony Simonini..................................140
Greg Rice........................................137
Jonathan Saggers.............................131
Dave Mansfield.................................119
John Slade.......................................74

Reddot

Colin Matthews.................................229 1st (after shoot off)
Sean Cameron.................................229 2nd
David Edwards.................................217
Paul Hurrell......................................196
Dave Mansfield.................................196
Clive Madley....................................190
Vic Chytry.......................................184
Terry Fairhurst.................................176

Scope

Mike Issac........................................229 1st
Alison Mansfield................................226 2nd
Ken Thomas.....................................215 3rd
Dennis Mansfield...............................75
_________________
Colin M.

Steyr LG110 FT.
HW 100 .177 Gimp Stock,
AA ProSport .177,
Steyr LP50.

Levidog · Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 41

Well done to Colin for beating me in the red dot shoot off.

Thanks to Dave for his ever welcome company today.

Just one thing, can somebody clarify the rules regarding entering the pistol com twice.

1) Do both rounds count on the day and towards the six monthly ?

2) There appeared to be a concern that second time round the course would be learned, any advice ?

3) There also was concern that the other competitors scores would be known during the second round, any advice ?

Possibly best if we are all up front about everything at the start of this new addition to the pistol monthly comp

Sean

Cooperman · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 201 Location: Hemel Hempstead

Had a discussion today with a few of the bods who make the rules and they came to the conclusion, I believe, that for this 6 month competition it will stand that shooters can enter more than 1 comp. and their scores will go toward the 6 month competition. Hope someone can confirm this please.

As you know it started on the Xmas Comp. as a bit of fun and Alison informed me that after asking competitors if they would like to continue with this format then it will start from the January shoot.

But I will put my hand up and say that I do believe it could be an advantage to shoot the course a second time. I know it is shot in a different discipline but it is still the same course and familiarization, i feel, could give an extra point or 2 which when you look at the scores is the difference between placings. Thats why no one is allowed to view a course before a comp. so everyone is on the same footing at the start.

Perhaps in the next 6 month league, if competitors want to shoot again with another pistol, they can do but only one score card will be counted, that being their first discipline they shoot on the course that day.

This means everyone who is competing will be shooting together at the same time, therefore no course familiarity, no viewing other scorecards before shooting the 2nd round (not saying this happens but would cut out the chance it could), and also I believe for the benefit of the health of the pistol competition, no single person can take all the honours monthly or 6 monthly, therefore a fair share of medals and trophies for everyone.

Anyway thats my 2 pence worth (or may be 4 pence), and I'm sure others will having different views and ideas.
_________________
Colin M.

Steyr LG110 FT.
HW 100 .177 Gimp Stock,
AA ProSport .177,
Steyr LP50.

Levidog · Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 41

My reply would be that

1) At the distances that we shoot I only ever aim dead on so I don't feel that anything is learnt for the second time

2) During the second round the kill zones are splattered and so a definate disadvantage and at my age fatigue is a factor.

3) I didn't realise that we can't view the course before shooting it, just never felt the need.

4) When I shoot a course I intend to score as much as possible, I can't understand why knowing previous scores would be an advantage. However I apologise if jokingly looking over Andys shoulder caused offence.

5) I do take on board the comment on sharing the trophies though, I think both Colin and I were disappointed to come away with nothing last year.

For the rest of the 6 months I will shoot the red dot first, like the first round, as I feel this could be the closer class.

Cooperman · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 201 Location: Hemel Hempstead

Levidog · Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 41

BANGALOOR · Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 407 Location: north london

hi Collin
i need a bit of help here, i don't understand how shooting the course twice
,with the second time being a different discipline and different gun with in all probability different power/ballistics, can help get an extra point,
also how will knowing other peoples score give an advantage?

i don't know of any other sport (i could be wrong) where competitors aren't allowed to know the course set up, and be aware of other peoples score.

i know its ukhft rules not to see the course etc, but i have never understood the logic behind it, other than the course setters wanting to spring a surprise on the shooters. can you or someone else help me understand?

vic
ps

i am of the opinion that shooters should be allowed to walk the course before competition starts.

i also think competitions should be made more spectator friendly.
_________________
if you fear failure, you wont try, if you don't try, you wont succeed.

so, dare to fail if you want to succeed.

Cooperman · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 201 Location: Hemel Hempstead

Davali · Joined: 05 Sep 2005 Posts: 279 Location: London Colney

Firstly the ruling to allow re-entry was introduced so that competitors could enter one two or all of the disciplines, The entry fee is payable for each discipline and trophies are awarded in these, The scores will also count towards the six Monthly league in each discipline entered.
I for one would argue the point that having shot the course once would give an advantage to a competitor who will be shooting, (As Vic states), a different gun with different balistic curves.
I would point out that "The course" has been viewed by competitors before the start of the comp. How are we to police that?.
My opinion is that we should keep the re-entry feature in the comp. However we may have to limit the entry for the six monthly league to one discipline only?.

On a point of re-entry, In the FT discipline you can enter three sections, Sporting, FT and springun, The sporting has to shot first then you can choose, If you shoot the FT you are permitted to note the range of each target so that when you shoot the springun you will know the range.
Comments on that please!.

Dave.

Cooperman · Joined: 30 Jul 2005 Posts: 201 Location: Hemel Hempstead

.

Sounds pretty fair Dave.

The point about seeing the course before it's shot may have mistakenly been taken out of context or not put across correctly by myself in the first place.
I wasn't trying to make it a closed off area, as this would be tricky considering it's usually next to the clubhouse, and also at the end of the day it should be a pretty relaxed club shoot. I was trying to get the point over that once the course has been shot then it's familiarized, and in more formal shoots you wouldn't get access.
Obviously theres differing opinions on whether this assists shooters or not, and were all entitled to our own opinions (how PC is that).

Davali · Joined: 05 Sep 2005 Posts: 279 Location: London Colney

As it was stated that the re-entry would apply for the coming six months it would be fair that the trophies could be won in the classes you enter into and suggested only one re-entry because of the time factor and also the people waiting to take the course down.
As we started, it would be wrong to stop it for this six months as it is a trial anyway as to whether it would continue in this format.
Why I thought it to be a good idea was that it would create more shooters in each group thus making it more competitive and an opportunity for others to win a trophy.
Remember the more people we get to enter any competition looks good and helps pay for all the trophies we have to buy.
Last year people were saying that they have all these pistols they could not use, Well now you can!!!.
I do not see the advantage if you are using a different gun as it would not be set the same as your first one, Different "Ball game" all together.
I wan't to see the pistol competition carry on and not just with about 13 people and this would be a way of doing just that.
I am sorry that this has caused concern over the supposed advantage, I was looking only at the positive to make the competition interesting and viable.
Alison (Comp. Sec.)
p.s. Shooting should be fun "Boys" as well as being fair.

BANGALOOR · Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 407 Location: north london

hi Colin
when i asked you to help me understand why it is unfair to see the course before a competition, i was not trying to be awkward.

when i started airgunning about two years ago i knew very little about the sport, i thought i could bring my skills as a shooting coach (of military weapons) into airgunning, well i was wrong, so i have tried to learn as much as i can about airgunning, i have taken courses, read books, taken guns apart, and picked the brains of other club members.

it was with the intention of learning more that i asked you those questions, i was hoping you or someone else might be able to explain, why is it an unfair advantage to
a/
see the course before shooting?
b/
know other peoples score?

can you or anyone else help me understand?

vic
_________________
if you fear failure, you wont try, if you don't try, you wont succeed.

so, dare to fail if you want to succeed.

BANGALOOR · Joined: 30 Nov 2006 Posts: 407 Location: north london

hi dave. (comment on shooting springer after FT)
i have never shot spring gun comps, so i am not sure of the rules.

however i was under the impression you could not range-find, if that is so then surely it would be wrong to shoot springer after having shot FT, because you will have an advantage over other springer shooters that have not shot FT, and they would, therefore not know the ranges.

but i am not sure if i am right here.

vic
_________________
if you fear failure, you wont try, if you don't try, you wont succeed.

so, dare to fail if you want to succeed.

herx77 · Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject:

There is a certain advantage in knowing the oppositions score before you start to shoot,it allows you to pace yourself and dissipats the tensions usually present Twisted Evil

.
Overall I think having shot the course once, it is to your advantage knowing the ranges(which if you are any good you will) irrespective of the type of catagory you shoot in,open sight, scope, red dot.
You should have put in the practice necessary to make you think you have acheived a standard that makes you competitive to go in for this competition,including alll the little tweeks and info that entails.
There is a lot in not seeing the scores and going straight on to shoot the second round immediately.
If time and some kind Twisted Evil

person will do it shuffle the targets to alter the ranges,yes others have shot the course already but we are trying for a level playing field here,as I would be at the pistol shoot and would have finished already I would be happy to spend a few minutes re- arranging the course to stop any advantage gained from the first round by those doing it again. Laughing

HERX77.
_________________
Light is truth , beware the dark one. The night keeps on moving in on the day.

Levidog · Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 41