>> whykuffar? 2

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http://www.ummah.net/what-is-islam/quran/noble/nobe009.htm

28. O you who believe (in Allâh's Oneness and in His Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Verily, the Mushrikûn (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh, and in the Message of Muhammad SAW) are Najasun (impure)[]. So let them not come near Al-Masjid-al-Harâm (at Makkah) after this year, and if you fear poverty, Allâh will enrich you if He will, out of His Bounty. Surely, Allâh is All-Knowing, All-Wise.

29. Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allâh, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allâh and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islâm) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah[] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

30. And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allâh, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allâh. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allâh's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth![]

32. They (the disbelievers, the Jews and the Christians) want to extinguish Allâh's Light (with which Muhammad SAW has been sent - Islâmic Monotheism) with their mouths, but Allâh will not allow except that His Light should be perfected even though the Kâfirûn (disbelievers) hate (it).

44. Those who believe in Allâh and the Last Day would not ask your leave to be exempted from fighting with their properties and their lives, and Allâh is the All-Knower of Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

45. It is only those who believe not in Allâh and the Last Day and whose hearts are in doubt that ask your leave (to be exempted from Jihâd). So in their doubts they waver.

64. The hypocrites fear lest a Sûrah (chapter of the Qur'ân) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: "(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allâh will bring to light all that you fear."

65. If you ask them (about this), they declare: "We were only talking idly and joking." Say: "Was it at Allâh (ÚÒ æ Ìá), and His Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger (SAW) that you were mocking?"

80. … (and even) if you ask seventy times for their forgiveness … Allâh will not forgive them....

82. So let them laugh a little and (they will) cry much as a recompense of what they used to earn (by committing sins).

83. If Allâh brings you back to a party of them (the hypocrites), and they ask your permission to go out (to fight), say: "Never shall you go out with me, nor fight an enemy with me; you agreed to sit inactive on the first occasion, then you sit (now) with those who lag behind."

84. And never (O Muhammad SAW) pray (funeral prayer) for any of them (hypocrites) who dies, nor stand at his grave. Certainly they disbelieved in Allâh and His Messenger, and died while they were Fâsiqûn (rebellious, - disobedient to Allâh and His Messenger SAW).

85. And let not their wealth or their children amaze you. Allâh's Plan is to punish them with these things in this world, and that their souls shall depart (die) while they are disbelievers.

86. And when a Sûrah (chapter from the Qur'ân) is revealed, enjoining them to believe in Allâh and to strive hard and fight along with His Messenger, the wealthy among them ask your leave to exempt them (from Jihâd) and say, "Leave us (behind), we would be with those who sit (at home)."

91. There is no blame on those who are weak or ill or who find no resources to spend [in holy fighting (Jihâd)], if they are sincere and true (in duty) to Allâh and His Messenger.[] No ground (of complaint) can there be against the Muhsinûn (good-doers - see the footnote of V.9:120). And Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

92. Nor (is there blame) on those who came to you to be provided with mounts, and when you said: "I can find no mounts for you," they turned back, while their eyes overflowing with tears of grief that they could not find anything to spend (for Jihâd).
93. The ground (of complaint) is only against those who are rich, and yet ask exemption[]. They are content to be with (the women) who sit behind (at home) and Allâh has sealed up their hearts (from all kinds of goodness and right guidance) so that they know not (what they are losing).

122. And it is not (proper) for the believers to go out to fight (Jihâd) all together. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth, that they (who are left behind) may get instructions in (Islâmic) religion, and that they may warn their people when they return to them, so that they may beware (of evil).

123. O you who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are close to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allâh is with those who are the Al-Muttaqûn (the pious - see V.2:2).

127. And whenever there comes down a Sûrah (chapter from the Qur'ân), they look at one another (saying): "Does any one see you?" Then they turn away. Allâh has turned their hearts (from the light) because they are a people that understand not.

Rhoda2 · WK Shurah Member

As they so often say at LGF

ROPMA!

Thanks, Temp.

The 'glorious' document seems to be full or repetition, does it not?

George Patton said all of the above more briefly and better.

Well, maybe it will turn out that this part of the Q was 'abrogated'.

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"Tell that to anyone who can read Surah 9, which was EITHER the last "revealed" or near-last--in any case, using the Koranic principle of "abbrogation", it trashes the Meccan "tolerance" Surahs AND any idea of non-physical jihad"

??????

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=115374&page=2

add:

I have an intrest in the islamic concept of abbrogation.
I am aware of the change in the direction of prayer from Jerusalem to Mekkah in the Qur'an.

Q -My question regards the notion of tolerance. Is tolerance truely Islamic? Many western muslims often quote the verse "let there be no compulsion in religion" (2:256) from the early mecca period. But couldn't this teaching be abbrogated by the later medinan verse (9.29) regarding fighting those unbeleivers, and force the people of the book to pay the Jizyah tax?

A- The verse, "Let there be no compulsion in religion" is NOT abrogated as you allege. The verse, 9:29 was revealed in the particular context of an ongoing war. It has not a universal application. And also Jizya was a tax in the place of Zakah given by Muslims, IN AN ISLAMIC COUNTRY. That is to say, Non-Muslims had to pay a tax as Muslims had a tax to pay. One tax was called zakah, the other was called jizya.

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=719AjX

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add

Whilst the second Sura deals with retalitory fighting, Suras 8 & 9 deal with offensive.

And, as we all know, under the "law of Allah couldn't make his mind up" ooops, sorry; "law of abbrogation" Suras 8 & 9 get the final say.

" Say to those who have disbelieved, if they cease (from disbelief) their past will be forgiven. But if they return (thereto), then the examples of those (punished) before them have already preceded (as a warning).
And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allâh) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allâh Alone [in the whole of the world[]]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allâh), then certainly, Allâh is All-Seer of what they do"
Sura 8:38-39.

Another example from the Hadith;

Saheeh Muslim - 1765
Narrated Abi Hurayrah:

"While we were at the Mosque, the Messenger of Allah (SAW) came to us and said,
"Go to the Jews."
So we went out with him until we arrived. So the Messenger of Allah (SAW) stood up and called on them,
"O ye Jewish people, become Muslims and you will be safe."
They replied,
"You have delivered [your message] O Aba Al-Qasim [Mohammad's Kunyah (title)]."
So he said to them,
"That [delivering the message] is what I want. Become Muslims and you will be safe."
They replied,
"You have delivered [your message] O Aba Al-Qasim [Mohammad's Kunyah (title)]."
So he repeated what he said for the third time and said,
"Know that the land is for Allah and his Messenger, and I want to exile you from this land. So let him he who finds something valuable in his possession sell it; or know that the land is for Allah and his Messenger."

ie. m12390, The Jews here had done nothing wrong (except of course the grave sin of refusing to become Muslims) and this, in Muhammeds mind, gave him a free ticket to kill them and force them from their homes.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/003550.php

Rhoda2 · WK Shurah Member

So there--WAS compulsion? I am stunned to learn it.

I am forced to say that the more I learn about Mohammed and his henchmen--uh--companions, the more detestable I find him.

By the way, there is something I'm sure of although I've never seen it mentioned.

Dhimmis were forced to pay zakah in addition to jizya.

(and to think that a couple of years ago none of those words were in my vocabulary.)[/i][/b]
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"the Prophet didn't smell, he had a natural pleasant smell that wasn't a sweaty smell."

Someone on Ummah.com

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"Dhimmis were forced to pay zakah in addition to jizya. "

Really? Wher's ya find that?

BTW, ran across this in searching abbrogation:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Islamic+Antisemitism&hl=en&sitesearch=#

And this:

One keeps being surprised at how little people think they need to know before making grand pronouncements. Yesterday, amused by the latest display of vacuity and portentousness by Tom Friedman, nominating -- modestly -- Ali al-Sistani for the Nobel Prize -- I went to www.sistani.org to look around. There, between Sistani's complete banning of chess (and to think that checkmate is merely the Persian "shakh mat"), and his discussions of all the usual subjects that inquiring Muslims wish to know about, from whether it is okay to marry the sister of a man you have sodomized, or who has sodomized you (I forget which) to whether your canonical prayers count if you haven't performed the wudu (ablutions) correctly -- you know, all the stuff that you want to know, was something else, and that something was all about what is considered by Sistani and those who seek his guidance to be "Najis" or "unclean."

If you click on "Muslim Laws" on the left, and then, once a list comes up, click on "najis things," you will get a list -- #84 -- and if you then go a little further, and click on the menu where, among those unclean things, the "kafir" (which is to say, the Unbeliever, that is to say -- You and I, Dear Reader) you will get a further discussion of how, in the wonderful, "moderate" Islam of the al-Sistani variety, the Unbeliever, the Infidel, the Kafir (guilty of "kufr" or "ingratitude" for failing to receive the Revelation of the Last of the Prophets in the right, accepting, submissive way) is viewed.

Well, here is what you can find at www.sistani.org:

"84. The following ten things are essentially najis: 1. Urine 2. Faeces 3. Semen 4. Dead body 5. Blood 6. Dog 7. Pig 8. Kafir 9. Alcoholic liquors 10. The sweat of an animal who persistently eats najasat [i.e., unclean things].
108. The entire body of a Kafir, including his hair and nails, and all liquid substances of his body, are najis.
109. If the parents, paternal grandmother and paternal grandfather of a minor child are all kafir, that child is najis, except when he is intelligent enough, and professes Islam. When, even one person from his parents or grandparents is a Muslim, the child is Pak (The details will be explained in rule 217).
110. A person about whom it is not known whether he is a Muslim or not, and if no signs exist to establish him as a Muslim, he will be considered Pak. But he will not have the privileges of a Muslim, like, he cannot marry a Muslim woman, nor can he be buried in a Muslim cemetery."

So who wants to second the nomination of Al-Sistani for the Nobel Prize?

http://www.sistani.org/local.php?modules=main

Rhoda2 · WK Shurah Member

I don't KNOW that dhimmis paid both. But has anyone ever seen the word 'instead'? I am using my recently acquired knowledge of what it means to be a dhimmi. If anyone knows otherwise, please enlighten me.

This site will take up even more of my time. I have to ponder circumstances.

Marry off an absent minor child who may or may not be alive...?

Can this be a common problem?
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"the Prophet didn't smell, he had a natural pleasant smell that wasn't a sweaty smell."

Someone on Ummah.com

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"The Sunnah is that there is no jizya due from women or children of people of the Book, and that jizya is only taken from men who have reached puberty. The people of dhimma ... do not have to pay any zakat ... This is because zakat is imposed on the Muslims to purify them and to be given back to their poor, whereas jizya is imposed on the people of the Book to humble them...If in any one year they frequently come and go in Muslim countries then they have to pay a tenth every time they do so, since that is outside what they have agreed upon, and not one of the conditions stipulated for them. This is what I have seen the people of knowledge of our city doing." (17 24.46)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Taxation

or try

http://csconstantine.com/wikislam/en/index.php/Main_Page

On the sistani link in my previous post, make sure to click "English" at the bottom of the page. I noticed a photo of the ayahtolla Sistani on his web page. How does that work with any prohibition of human images? And why do many of these clerics look so similar, or is it just me?

Silkworm · WK Shurah Member

Ah, yawning, girls, Its best to go through the life of Prophet Mohammad s.a.w.w especially the Mediniite life. Bunch of Moslems along with women and children "moved" to The city of Medina to save themselves from the atrocities of the tribe of al-Quresh.

With their houses confiscated with their household items, the few Moslems find a sanctuary in the City of Medina. There were some powerful tribes of Jews Banu Qaynuqa, Banu Quraiza, Banu Hazab and one more tribe with many sub-clans) and who were in control of of lucrative trade routes from Mekkah to Medina, Syria and Yemen and rest of Arabia.

The first thing the Moslems did, who were vastly outnumbered by Jews and pagans, to SIGN AN AGREEMENT OF FRIENDSHIP WITH JEWS, Since they were considered and respected as the People of the Book.

What you say is carp - Reference: Al-Raheeq al-Makhtoom by Mawlana Safi-ur-Rehman Mubarakpuri of India, this is an award winning book.
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Silkworm Disclaimer: WARNING ignorant statements or arguments typed in public or semi-public arenas; can and will be used for public scrutiny of your idiocy. Silkworm is not responsible for ego damage or embarrassments as a result of what you write.

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They were also probably anxious to sign a treaty because, as you said, they were badly out-numbered. But if they did it because they respected others, then bravo.
However, I've heard it argued that when Mohammed had more converts and better odds, he did an about face on the peace thing.

Silkworm · WK Shurah Member

Ofcourse, this was a show of friendship towards the Jewish population who used to live in and around Medina. However you must consider the fact that a tiny Moslem migrant community that moved there were without any necessities let alone the luxuries and held no hostile intentions towards no one. Thanks
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Silkworm Disclaimer: WARNING ignorant statements or arguments typed in public or semi-public arenas; can and will be used for public scrutiny of your idiocy. Silkworm is not responsible for ego damage or embarrassments as a result of what you write.