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bayleaf is home
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Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 184
Location: usa
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 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:38 am Post subject: Gag |
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Yeah, that characterizes how I feel about WhyIslam right about now...
So, myname is reza and omidreza are pretty ignorant. I'm ashamed for the Muslims who are actually semi-intelligent because of these two...
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Om Hrim Shreem Klim Adya Kalika Param Eshwari Swaha |
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Rhoda2
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Joined: 17 Dec 2006
Posts: 4138
Location: Just outside the Beltway
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I just did a driveby and the second one is a smart ass. She thinks you guy's will give her easy setups for a game winning stroke. I think you won't.
And I do think someone, a mxlm perhaps, should mention that xtian is an impolite word.
It's like something Old Man Mo might have written, illiterate and all as he was. |
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bayleaf is home
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Posts: 184
Location: usa
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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I honestly do have a lot of respect for Shenango. He's the only Muslim I know who will willingly admit the stupidity of other Muslims. I know I'm praising arrogance here (God forgive me), but man, that was some stupid conversation last night...
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Om Hrim Shreem Klim Adya Kalika Param Eshwari Swaha |
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Rhoda2
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Location: Just outside the Beltway
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Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Magna said that once. Didn't go over very well. |
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Sola
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Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 114
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Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Rachel wrote: | | You see Bayleaf? You're never 'yourself'. You've got to be bitchy in front of your friends to make yourself look 'good' when in all reality, that's not who you are. Be yourself, is it that hard? Be yourself and you will be liked by all. But act up to gain acceptance, just kinda lame. |
Rachael I glad you have now found that you are able to be yourself after weeks of being someone else on WK. |
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Deserves2Die
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: | D2D, if we say that you sound like Deedat, please believe me, it is not a compliment. But we do notice when Muslims get their information about Christianity from Deedat. It stands out like a sore thumb.
I'm not really blaming you, you trusted the guy and you believed everything he told you was the truth. He no doubt believed he had the truth also.
Deedat was no scholar of Christianity. Believe me. No serious scholar of Christianity (of any persuasion) would give him much credit. He should have stuck to teaching Islam, like any good Sheik and left Christianity to the experts.
If you want to study Christianity serously, I would suggest you consult knowledgeable Christians.
A good place to start is to read "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis.
Angie. |
I believe you Angie, Deedat was no Biblical Scholar, He was a Student of Comparative Religions. That's all.
Angie I tell you, I saw the Bible first time when I was hardly 11 years old School days, in Saudi Arabia. I read the Genesis, it was in Arabic. I was shocked reading a "Snake" tricking Adam and Ever while in Islam I was taught that it was Satan. I placed the Bible back in book shelf and never read it again.. I was afraid, Honestly. Second Time, I swear to GOD, i saw it after joining WI. In my Free time during my Job, I used to read the Bible, many in my Office started calling me a Christian and I used to smile and say Yeah One day you'll see me moving my Hand to my Head then at my Chest left and right.. So the thing is, In my Whole Inter-Religious threads, I always quoted a Biblical chapter/verse and believed yall to be Bible Scholars (Which many claimed to be) and ask You to answer my questions which was basically my Inquiry of Christianity.. I still ask you Angie, does the Song of Solomon has Anything to do with Jesus and his relation with the Church? Is that Christians call a Commentary? Such things made me more fedup of this Religion, Honestly. When I said Decorating a Tree with Gold and Silver in any case of Divine Worship is Prohibited according to the Bible, Book of Jeremiah, SOme one from the Christians said "Fine but it doesn't specifically say a "Christmas Tree". Now imagine, what do you expect how shall I react to such teachings? I always said, I'm not hear to prove WhyIslam, but to correct Why not Christianity. I agree, I hate Blind Faith and more I hate a Blind Follower, which is the main reason a person losses his Dignity and respect.
Deedat had a Big mouth, His studies were amazing. According to experts "Only a Bible Illitrate would deny these defects in the Bible". So I don't blame Christians for hating him, his style wasn't of Teaching, but Criticizing.. And still, I don't blame Deedat for such Behaviour, it's hard to get along with Blind Faith.
Angie, I ask you a Question, Do you really believe I know NOTHING of The Bible and Christianity? I need an Honest answer.
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jonfan
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1781
Location: Jahiliyyaville
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: | | sraphine973 wrote: | D2D, if we say that you sound like Deedat, please believe me, it is not a compliment. But we do notice when Muslims get their information about Christianity from Deedat. It stands out like a sore thumb.
I'm not really blaming you, you trusted the guy and you believed everything he told you was the truth. He no doubt believed he had the truth also.
Deedat was no scholar of Christianity. Believe me. No serious scholar of Christianity (of any persuasion) would give him much credit. He should have stuck to teaching Islam, like any good Sheik and left Christianity to the experts.
If you want to study Christianity serously, I would suggest you consult knowledgeable Christians.
A good place to start is to read "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis.
Angie. |
I believe you Angie, Deedat was no Biblical Scholar, He was a Student of Comparative Religions. That's all.
Angie I tell you, I saw the Bible first time when I was hardly 11 years old School days, in Saudi Arabia. I read the Genesis, it was in Arabic. I was shocked reading a "Snake" tricking Adam and Ever while in Islam I was taught that it was Satan. I placed the Bible back in book shelf and never read it again.. I was afraid, Honestly. Second Time, I swear to GOD, i saw it after joining WI. In my Free time during my Job, I used to read the Bible, many in my Office started calling me a Christian and I used to smile and say Yeah One day you'll see me moving my Hand to my Head then at my Chest left and right.. So the thing is, In my Whole Inter-Religious threads, I always quoted a Biblical chapter/verse and believed yall to be Bible Scholars (Which many claimed to be) and ask You to answer my questions which was basically my Inquiry of Christianity.. I still ask you Angie, does the Song of Solomon has Anything to do with Jesus and his relation with the Church? Is that Christians call a Commentary? Such things made me more fedup of this Religion, Honestly. When I said Decorating a Tree with Gold and Silver in any case of Divine Worship is Prohibited according to the Bible, Book of Jeremiah, SOme one from the Christians said "Fine but it doesn't specifically say a "Christmas Tree". Now imagine, what do you expect how shall I react to such teachings? I always said, I'm not hear to prove WhyIslam, but to correct Why not Christianity. I agree, I hate Blind Faith and more I hate a Blind Follower, which is the main reason a person losses his Dignity and respect.
Deedat had a Big mouth, His studies were amazing. According to experts "Only a Bible Illitrate would deny these defects in the Bible". So I don't blame Christians for hating him, his style wasn't of Teaching, but Criticizing.. And still, I don't blame Deedat for such Behaviour, it's hard to get along with Blind Faith.
Angie, I ask you a Question, Do you really believe I know NOTHING of The Bible and Christianity? I need an Honest answer. |
HI D2D,
I do think you read the bible. However the exegesis you come up with is not correct. For instance many people use the Quran for cheap polemics against Islam but miss the true meaning. Now granted the Quran really doesn't follow a story or have a clear context on it's own. It is more a series of poems to me.
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I am a participant on "Al Gore's Amazing Internet". |
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jonfan
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1781
Location: Jahiliyyaville
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: | | jonfan wrote: |
HI D2D,
I do think you read the bible. However the exegesis you come up with is not correct. For instance many people use the Quran for cheap polemics against Islam but miss the true meaning. Now granted the Quran really doesn't follow a story or have a clear context on it's own. It is more a series of poems to me. |
This is shocking indeed Brother Jonfan, Anyway.
I have never touched the Bible if it was known as a History Book. The Bible is known as Word of God among the Christians, The every Fullstop, comma and Dot is the Word of God, isn't that What you believe Bro? Fine, How many Threads I shall point out where Christians are opnely rejecting their Word of God over their Man-made customs? Forget it.
Forget Quran and Islam, I ask you to Teach me the Bible, I ask you to become my Teacher and teach me the Christian theology with proof and evidence. I ask you WhyChristianity. I ask you to answer my Questions.
Will you do that for me? |
Hi D2D,
I am not a Biblical Scholar but if you ask me a question one at a time I can answer or find the answer for you. Plus we have westwind, sola, angie, and magna here to also answer. I also would hope you will participate on the Islamic threads as you were one of the folks I actually respected on WI.
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Deserves2Die
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:08 am Post subject: |
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| jonfan wrote: |
Hi D2D,
I am not a Biblical Scholar but if you ask me a question one at a time I can answer or find the answer for you. Plus we have westwind, sola, angie, and magna here to also answer. I also would hope you will participate on the Islamic threads as you were one of the folks I actually respected on WI. |
I Thank you for that Brother Jonfan. As I have always said "Respect the Person, not the Religion (if you don't agree with it). Ofcorse I respect, I must say, Love you all. One of the most important reason I'm here on Wk.
Let me say that again, I'm not here to prove WhyIslam, I'm here to ask WhyKuffar.
My First Question
Is the Bible Word of GOD? From Genesis to Revelations.
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jonfan
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Joined: 17 Nov 2006
Posts: 1781
Location: Jahiliyyaville
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: | | jonfan wrote: |
Hi D2D,
I am not a Biblical Scholar but if you ask me a question one at a time I can answer or find the answer for you. Plus we have westwind, sola, angie, and magna here to also answer. I also would hope you will participate on the Islamic threads as you were one of the folks I actually respected on WI. |
I Thank you for that Brother Jonfan. As I have always said "Respect the Person, not the Religion (if you don't agree with it). Ofcorse I respect, I must say, Love you all. One of the most important reason I'm here on Wk.
Let me say that again, I'm not here to prove WhyIslam, I'm here to ask WhyKuffar.
My First Question
Is the Bible Word of GOD? From Genesis to Revelations. |
The Bible, as the inspired recorded of revelation, contains the word of God; that is, it contains those revealed truths which the Holy Ghost wishes to be transmitted in writing. However, all revealed truths are not contained in the Bible (see TRADITION); neither is every truth in the Bible revealed, if by revelation is meant the manifestation of hidden truths which could not other be known. Much of the Scripture came to its writers through the channels of ordinary knowledge, but its sacred character and Divine authority are not limited to those parts which contain revelation strictly so termed. The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm
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Deserves2Die
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| jonfan wrote: | | Deserve2Die wrote: | | jonfan wrote: |
Hi D2D,
I am not a Biblical Scholar but if you ask me a question one at a time I can answer or find the answer for you. Plus we have westwind, sola, angie, and magna here to also answer. I also would hope you will participate on the Islamic threads as you were one of the folks I actually respected on WI. |
I Thank you for that Brother Jonfan. As I have always said "Respect the Person, not the Religion (if you don't agree with it). Ofcorse I respect, I must say, Love you all. One of the most important reason I'm here on Wk.
Let me say that again, I'm not here to prove WhyIslam, I'm here to ask WhyKuffar.
My First Question
Is the Bible Word of GOD? From Genesis to Revelations. |
The Bible, as the inspired recorded of revelation, contains the word of God; that is, it contains those revealed truths which the Holy Ghost wishes to be transmitted in writing. However, all revealed truths are not contained in the Bible (see TRADITION); neither is every truth in the Bible revealed, if by revelation is meant the manifestation of hidden truths which could not other be known. Much of the Scripture came to its writers through the channels of ordinary knowledge, but its sacred character and Divine authority are not limited to those parts which contain revelation strictly so termed. The Bible not only contains the word of God; it is the word of God. The primary author is the Holy Ghost, or, as it is commonly expressed, the human authors wrote under the influence of Divine inspiration.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm |
Brother Jonfan, Your post contain Double answers
1. It contains Word of GOD (Which I always said and You people never believe me because I sound like Deedat lol, good start)
2. The Bible not only contains the Word of God, it is the Word of God??? Can you explain more Teacher? According to me, every Comma, Fullstop and Dot is the Word of GOD, isn't that What Christians say?
So you said, It contains Word of God, secondly you said Not only the Word of God, it is Word of God. I'm confused.
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sraphine973
 WK Shurah Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 805
Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:54 am Post subject: |
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Wow, you don't believe in a Story mentioned in your Word of God and you still don't believe in it.. and on the other hand, You expect me to Believe in it? So you don't believe that EVERY word of the Bible is the Word of God?
D2D, you need to approach the Bible in a completely different way to the way you would read the Quran.
You believe the Quran is the literal word of Allah relayed to Muhammad via Gabriel.
We believe the Bible is a collection of books by different authors who were inspired by the Spirit of God to write stories using a variety of different literary styles. Some of the Bible is written in allegorical language, some in poetic language, as is the Song of Solomon.
As Jonfan said, not ALL the books in the Bible are meant to be read literally, but many ARE. Regardless of what literary style is used, we believe that all the books in the Bible are God's revelation to us of some truth about God. But the ULTIMATE revelation for us of God Himself, was in the very person of Jesus Christ. That is why we call Him the Word of God made flesh.
That is why Hebrew begins:
Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Bible is the record of HOW God spoke to us in the past MANY TIMES through VARIOUS ways.
If you want to really understand Christianity, you must first find out what we actually believe.
Read "Mere Christianity". It explains the essential doctrine that is common to all mainstream Christian groups.
After you have done that, then you can look in the Bible to see how we have come to that doctrine.
Don't get your information about Christianity from people like ezkl9four. As much as you want to believe her version of "christianity", because it resembles Islam, as far as most of us are concerned, a lot of her ideas are heretical. Her doctrine to us is like what the Ahmadiyya is to you.
Angie.
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.....but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.(Joshua 24:15) |
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Magnacarta
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 2192
Location: Shabalabadingdong, Iceland
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:07 am Post subject: |
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The word of God is written on the heart, reflected in the text, understood by the believer. You know, it is about substance and not the minute details....
For instance, the stories of people like Job, Joseph (son of Jacob), Moses, etc may have variances in text, but the meaning and purpose of the story, the lessons they hold for all who read them, are not lost. And they are universal in their truth.
Which is why it doesn't take a scholar to receive the Grace of God. Jesus taught, it is by faith that the believer's receive. What are you receiving?
Divine love (as opposed to human love)...and you are worthy of it!
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It is by loving the creation that we worship the creator. All of mankind is God's creation. You can not hate another and claim to love the creator, for by doing so you are hating the one who created him. |
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Deserves2Die
WK Shurah Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: | Wow, you don't believe in a Story mentioned in your Word of God and you still don't believe in it.. and on the other hand, You expect me to Believe in it? So you don't believe that EVERY word of the Bible is the Word of God?
D2D, you need to approach the Bible in a completely different way to the way you would read the Quran.
You believe the Quran is the literal word of Allah relayed to Muhammad via Gabriel.
We believe the Bible is a collection of books by different authors who were inspired by the Spirit of God to write stories using a variety of different literary styles. Some of the Bible is written in allegorical language, some in poetic language, as is the Song of Solomon.
As Jonfan said, not ALL the books in the Bible are meant to be read literally, but many ARE. Regardless of what literary style is used, we believe that all the books in the Bible are God's revelation to us of some truth about God. But the ULTIMATE revelation for us of God Himself, was in the very person of Jesus Christ. That is why we call Him the Word of God made flesh.
That is why Hebrew begins:
Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Bible is the record of HOW God spoke to us in the past MANY TIMES through VARIOUS ways.
If you want to really understand Christianity, you must first find out what we actually believe.
Read "Mere Christianity". It explains the essential doctrine that is common to all mainstream Christian groups.
After you have done that, then you can look in the Bible to see how we have come to that doctrine.
Don't get your information about Christianity from people like ezkl9four. As much as you want to believe her version of "christianity", because it resembles Islam, as far as most of us are concerned, a lot of her ideas are heretical. Her doctrine to us is like what the Ahmadiyya is to you.
Angie. |
This is indeed amazing Angie. None on WI ever told me that Christians do not actually beleive the Whole Bible literally to be the Word of GOD. I absolutely agree with your Definations.
You said:- We believe the Bible is a collection of books by different authors who were inspired by the Spirit of God to write stories using a variety of different literary styles. Some of the Bible is written in allegorical language, some in poetic language, as is the Song of Solomon.
1. what do you believe about the Book of Jonah? As Jonfan says He takes it as a Moral Story, He doesn't believe that the Whale actually took Jonah pbuh inside and then after few days threw him out.
2. if you say that Inspired Writers wrote such Books, it means we must have knowledge of these authors. Can you give me the List of authors of the OT? and New Testament as well.
3. As a Non-Christian student of the Bible, I would like to know that Which Part of the Bible is literally the Word of God? and Which Part of the Bible is written by Ordinary men claiming to be inspired by God.
I will read that link I promise Angie. Still I want to confess, I don't read links, I believe in talking.
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Deserves2Die
WK Shurah Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Magnacarta wrote: | The word of God is written on the heart, reflected in the text, understood by the believer. You know, it is about substance and not the minute details....
For instance, the stories of people like Job, Joseph (son of Jacob), Moses, etc may have variances in text, but the meaning and purpose of the story, the lessons they hold for all who read them, are not lost. And they are universal in their truth.
Which is why it doesn't take a scholar to receive the Grace of God. Jesus taught, it is by faith that the believer's receive. What are you receiving?
Divine love (as opposed to human love)...and you are worthy of it! |
I absolutely agree.
Still, If it's not about learning but Recieving, We may well ask, What have we learned from the Bible and then what have we recieved?
I ask a simple Question, What if a boy like me wants to become a Christian, What would you do instead of handing a Bible to him? Any Religion's proof is the Book which preaches it. I have always preferred the Bible as the First and Last source of my Christianity learning, Do you think the decision was Wrong?
Please don't mind, But If I read some verses of the Bible and then share my "Recievings" with you, You'll end up calling it an Insult. My objection is, I'm reading your Scriptures, not insulting You.
I have a Question for you only, Would you like to answer it? I have recieved something from the Bible and like to share it with you.
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sraphine973
WK Shurah Member
Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 805
Location: Australia
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: | | sraphine973 wrote: | Wow, you don't believe in a Story mentioned in your Word of God and you still don't believe in it.. and on the other hand, You expect me to Believe in it? So you don't believe that EVERY word of the Bible is the Word of God?
D2D, you need to approach the Bible in a completely different way to the way you would read the Quran.
You believe the Quran is the literal word of Allah relayed to Muhammad via Gabriel.
We believe the Bible is a collection of books by different authors who were inspired by the Spirit of God to write stories using a variety of different literary styles. Some of the Bible is written in allegorical language, some in poetic language, as is the Song of Solomon.
As Jonfan said, not ALL the books in the Bible are meant to be read literally, but many ARE. Regardless of what literary style is used, we believe that all the books in the Bible are God's revelation to us of some truth about God. But the ULTIMATE revelation for us of God Himself, was in the very person of Jesus Christ. That is why we call Him the Word of God made flesh.
That is why Hebrew begins:
Hebrews 1
1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. 3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Bible is the record of HOW God spoke to us in the past MANY TIMES through VARIOUS ways.
If you want to really understand Christianity, you must first find out what we actually believe.
Read "Mere Christianity". It explains the essential doctrine that is common to all mainstream Christian groups.
After you have done that, then you can look in the Bible to see how we have come to that doctrine.
Don't get your information about Christianity from people like ezkl9four. As much as you want to believe her version of "christianity", because it resembles Islam, as far as most of us are concerned, a lot of her ideas are heretical. Her doctrine to us is like what the Ahmadiyya is to you.
Angie. |
This is indeed amazing Angie. None on WI ever told me that Christians do not actually beleive the Whole Bible literally to be the Word of GOD. I absolutely agree with your Definations.
You said:- We believe the Bible is a collection of books by different authors who were inspired by the Spirit of God to write stories using a variety of different literary styles. Some of the Bible is written in allegorical language, some in poetic language, as is the Song of Solomon.
1. what do you believe about the Book of Jonah? As Jonfan says He takes it as a Moral Story, He doesn't believe that the Whale actually took Jonah pbuh inside and then after few days threw him out.
2. if you say that Inspired Writers wrote such Books, it means we must have knowledge of these authors. Can you give me the List of authors of the OT? and New Testament as well.
3. As a Non-Christian student of the Bible, I would like to know that Which Part of the Bible is literally the Word of God? and Which Part of the Bible is written by Ordinary men claiming to be inspired by God.
I will read that link I promise Angie. Still I want to confess, I don't read links, I believe in talking. |
Whoooaaah D2D!!!! Hold your horses. You are grabbing the wrong end of the stick again and going off full pelt. Take it easy. You have to learn to walk before you can run.
We DO believe the Bible is the word of God. EVERY SINGLE BIT OF IT.
But God does not usually speak to us in the way you and I use English to communicate. In the Bible God spoke to His people through the events of their lives (their history), through His prophets, and finally through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. To us it is inconceivable that God would reveal everything to just one man as you believe Allah did with Muhammad. You believe the Quran on the basis of what you think you know about the integrity of one man. To us it is inconceivable that God would entrust so much to just one mere mortal. Instead we believe He entrusted His revelation to many of His servants.The result is a collection of books overflowing with God's revelations to mankind. Each book flowing and meshing beautifully into the other. Each revelation building onto the previous and alligning perfectly.
In the OT the Spirit of God came on those chosen by God for a special purpose and for a limited time. Because of what happened in the Garden of Eden, the Spirit of God was no longer able to indwell fallen and sinful mankind.
But because of what Christ did on the Cross, God was able to pour out His Spirit on all those who believed as He had promised through the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28 ) and which was realised at Pentecost as recounted in Acts2.
Please read "Mere Christianity" for me and then we can discuss some more.
Angie.
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.....but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.(Joshua 24:15) |
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Deserves2Die
WK Shurah Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: | Whoooaaah D2D!!!! Hold your horses. You are grabbing the wrong end of the stick again and going off full pelt. Take it easy. You have to learn to walk before you can run.
We DO believe the Bible is the word of God. EVERY SINGLE BIT OF IT.
But God does not usually speak to us in the way you and I use English to communicate. In the Bible God spoke to His people through the events of their lives (their history), through His prophets, and finally through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. To us it is inconceivable that God would reveal everything to just one man as you believe Allah did with Muhammad. You believe the Quran on the basis of what you think you know about the integrity of one man. To us it is inconceivable that God would entrust so much to just one mere mortal. Instead we believe He entrusted His revelation to many of His servants.The result is a collection of books overflowing with God's revelations to mankind. Each book flowing and meshing beautifully into the other. Each revelation building onto the previous and alligning perfectly.
In the OT the Spirit of God came on those chosen by God for a special purpose and for a limited time. Because of what happened in the Garden of Eden, the Spirit of God was no longer able to indwell fallen and sinful mankind.
But because of what Christ did on the Cross, God was able to pour out His Spirit on all those who believed as He had promised through the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28 ) and which was realised at Pentecost as recounted in Acts2.
Please read "Mere Christianity" for me and then we can discuss some more.
Angie. |
Oh I'm sorry, I'm always in Hurry and My Moms hates it about Me as well. 
Ok U said, Every Single Bit of it. Isn't that What I was saying? That Every Single Word of the Bible is God's according to Christians as far as I know & that is what I meant saying "Every Comma & Fullstop".
You said:- But God does not usually speak to us in the way you and I use English to communicate. In the Bible God spoke to His people through the events of their lives (their history), through His prophets, and finally through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
Ok, In the Bible I found many Sons, even First Begotten of God. How can Jesus be the Only Begotten Son? The Bible contains the Old Testament as well which mentions many of them. So whats the point?
You said:- To us it is inconceivable that God would reveal everything to just one man as you believe Allah did with Muhammad. You believe the Quran on the basis of what you think you know about the integrity of one man. To us it is inconceivable that God would entrust so much to just one mere mortal. Instead we believe He entrusted His revelation to many of His servants.The result is a collection of books overflowing with God's revelations to mankind. Each book flowing and meshing beautifully into the other. Each revelationbuilding onto the previous and alligning perfectly.
Ok, It means the Whole Bible wasn't revealed to a Single Man but many of God's Servant and Later they Joined it all Together. Yes I agree the Whole Quran was revealed to Muhammad pbuh alone. So the source is Known as Muhammad pbuh, as the author of the Quran (Naturally). But Bible's case in different. I have few questions
1. Who Joined all these Books Together and Formed a Book "The Bible"?
2. I need the Names of Every Book's Author from Genesis to Revelations.
You said:-In the OT the Spirit of God came on those chosen by God for a special purpose and for a limited time. Because of what happened in the Garden of Eden, the Spirit of God was no longer able to indwell fallen and sinful mankind.
But because of what Christ did on the Cross, God was able to pour out His Spirit on all those who believed as He had promised through the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28 ) and which was realised at Pentecost as recounted in Acts2.
hmm.
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sraphine973
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: |
Oh I'm sorry, I'm always in Hurry and My Moms hates it about Me as well.
Ok U said, Every Single Bit of it. Isn't that What I was saying? That Every Single Word of the Bible is God's according to Christians as far as I know & that is what I meant saying "Every Comma & Fullstop".
You said:- But God does not usually speak to us in the way you and I use English to communicate. In the Bible God spoke to His people through the events of their lives (their history), through His prophets, and finally through His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ.
Ok, In the Bible I found many Sons, even First Begotten of God. How can Jesus be the Only Begotten Son? The Bible contains the Old Testament as well which mentions many of them. So whats the point?
John's Gospel uses the word monogenēs. This word in Greek means;only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child). You wil not find anyone else described as the one and only unique son of God in the Bible.
You said:- To us it is inconceivable that God would reveal everything to just one man as you believe Allah did with Muhammad. You believe the Quran on the basis of what you think you know about the integrity of one man. To us it is inconceivable that God would entrust so much to just one mere mortal. Instead we believe He entrusted His revelation to many of His servants.The result is a collection of books overflowing with God's revelations to mankind. Each book flowing and meshing beautifully into the other. Each revelationbuilding onto the previous and alligning perfectly.
Ok, It means the Whole Bible wasn't revealed to a Single Man but many of God's Servant and Later they Joined it all Together. Yes I agree the Whole Quran was revealed to Muhammad pbuh alone. So the source is Known as Muhammad pbuh, as the author of the Quran (Naturally). But Bible's case in different. I have few questions
1. Who Joined all these Books Together and Formed a Book "The Bible"?
The simple answer to that is the Church. Here is some serious study for you:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03274a.htm
2. I need the Names of Every Book's Author from Genesis to Revelations.
Some we know and some we don't know. But we know that all the books included in the Bible are inspired (God breathed) because of the character of the literature that they contain:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm
In one respect, therefore, the Bible is a twofold literature, made up of two distinct collections which correspond with two successive and unequal periods of time in the history of man. The older of these collection, mostly written in Hebrew, corresponds with the many centuries during which the Jewish people enjoyed a national existence, and forms the Hebrew, or Old Testament, literature; the more recent collection, begun not long after Our Lord's ascension, and made up of Greek writings, is the Early Christian, or New Testament, literature. Yet, in another and deeper respect, the Biblical literature is pre-eminently one. Its two sets of writings are most closely connected with regard to doctrines revealed, facts recorded, customs described, and even expressions used. Above all, bothcollection have one and the same religious purpose, one and the same inspired character. They form the two parts of a great organic whole the centre of which is the person and mission of Christ. The same Spirit exercised His mysterious hidden influence on the writings of both Testaments, and made of the works of those who lived before Our Lord an active and steady preparation for the New Testament dispensation which he was to introduce, and of the works of those who wrote after Him a real continuation and striking fulfilment of the old Covenant.
You said:-In the OT the Spirit of God came on those chosen by God for a special purpose and for a limited time. Because of what happened in the Garden of Eden, the Spirit of God was no longer able to indwell fallen and sinful mankind.
But because of what Christ did on the Cross, God was able to pour out His Spirit on all those who believed as He had promised through the prophet Joel (Joel 2:28 ) and which was realised at Pentecost as recounted in Acts2.
hmm. |
Indeed hmmm. You see D2D, you place undue importance on knowing who the human instruments were that God used to pen the books of the Bible.
To Christians this is not really a critical matter because the hand and Spirit of God can be detected in the message that is contained within it's pages. Just as creation shows us God's handiwork, to us the Bible does the same. God uses the language of humankind to convey to us a message through His Spirit, and this message is not easily discerned unless God's own Spirit reveals it to you. To this end the Bible must never be approached as a textbook, but must be approached always with reverence and prayerfulness, asking God to reveal Himself to you as you read the words. That is why the language it is written in is not that important to us either. God's Spirit can speak to us regardles of whether the words are in Hebrew, Greek, Italian or Mandarin.
It is truly a universal book because it does not depend on human language to deliver it's message, but God's language, the Spirit's language. You don't have to be really clever to understand the Bible, just humble of Spirit:
Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Angie.
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| jimdi3 wrote: |
The Deuterocanonical books of the Bible are books considered by the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Christianity to be canonical parts of the Christian Old Testament but are not present in the Hebrew Bible, which is often described as protocanonical. This distinction had previously contributed to debate in the early church about whether they should be read in the churches and thus be classified as canonical texts.
The word deuterocanonical comes from the Greek meaning 'belonging to the second canon'. The etymology of the word is misleading, but it does indicate the hesitation with which these books were accepted into the canon by some. Note that the term does not mean non-canonical; despite this it has sometimes been used as a euphemism for the Apocrypha. It can also be applied by way of analogy to the canons of non-Catholic Christians, if the process of defining accepted scriptures involved two distinct groups of texts.
Protestant Christians usually do not classify any texts as "deuterocanonical"; they either omit them from the Bible, or include them in a section designated Apocrypha. The similarity between these different terms contributes to the confusion between the Roman Catholic and Orthodox deuterocanon and the texts considered non-canonical by one or both groups of Christians.
For the full article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterocanonical_books
0r http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm for the Catholic view. |
I see, just a quick Question, What is a Protestant Christian and a Catholic Christian? There Differences?
Jewish Testament (Torah) and Christian Old Testament (Torah again), Both are different? Why they are not present in Hebrew Bible? Since it's the Word of GOD We are talking about, So Why is it Present in Christian Bible and not in Hebrew Bible? Christian Bible (In English) is suppose to be a Translation of the Hebrew Bible right? Why Christian Old Testament in adding or removing Books? Who made this change? Do you believe some one is authorized for it other than a Prophet? The reason you quote is the Church, If a Church doesn't want to read a Book in the Congregation, How it has a right to make such a big change? I may ask, Church added or removed Books according to their listerner's Intrest or for their Own Intrest? I'm surprised. Shall I say? Church introuduced a Reformed Bible?
Why the Protestant and Catholic Bible(s) are Different? Since It's the Word of GOD which can't be added or removed according to their Church's Intrest, am I right? Dont you think?
I also found this in your Links,
Books of The Bible
Can you explain this addition and removal of Books in these Bible(s)?
[/url]
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: |
John's Gospel uses the word monogenēs. This word in Greek means;only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child). You wil not find anyone else described as the one and only unique son of God in the Bible.
. |
Ok, The English Translations whether it's King James Version or even if it's Jimdi's recomended Douay Version, I don't know which Greek Word was used for "Only SOn or Only Begotten", both these Books Translate this Word as begotten for many Sons of God.
See this
Douady Rhiems Bible Psalms 2:7 "The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee"
King James Version Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee".
God also calls many of his Prophet as his Sons.
Now considering John's Only Begotten and comparing it to Psalms 2:7, it says that God already had a Son, a begotten Son. How Jesus can be his First and Only Begotten Son? Can you tell me Which Word is used as Begotten in Psalms 2:7? I agree, John's Only Gospel records such statement Which refers as an Only Begotten Son, Ok, what about Biblical verses like Psalms 2:7? John 3:16 rejects Psalms 2:7, or Psalms 2:7 Questions John 3:16? Psalms was written before John's Gospel, So shall We say John expressed his super Love for Jesus and actually rejected Psalms 2:7?
Ok, Why Different Churches adding and removing Books? Don't you consider it Wrong? Word of God is the Word of God which can't be edited, added or removed! This is a Logical criteria. So how can you justify such actions? As far as I know, Every Church claims to be inspired by The Holy Spirit. So Holy Spirit guiding Different People with Different theories?
| sraphine973 wrote: | 2. I need the Names of Every Book's Author from Genesis to Revelations.
Some we know and some we don't know. But we know that all the books included in the Bible are inspired (God breathed) because of the character of the literature that they contain:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm
In one respect, therefore, the Bible is a twofold literature, made up of two distinct collections which correspond with two successive and unequal periods of time in the history of man. The older of these collection, mostly written in Hebrew, corresponds with the many centuries during which the Jewish people enjoyed a national existence, and forms the Hebrew, or Old Testament, literature; the more recent collection, begun not long after Our Lord's ascension, and made up of Greek writings, is the Early Christian, or New Testament, literature. Yet, in another and deeper respect, the Biblical literature is pre-eminently one. Its two sets of writings are most closely connected with regard to doctrines revealed, facts recorded, customs described, and even expressions used. Above all, bothcollection have one and the same religious purpose, one and the same inspired character. They form the two parts of a great organic whole the centre of which is the person and mission of Christ. The same Spirit exercised His mysterious hidden influence on the writings of both Testaments, and made of the works of those who lived before Our Lord an active and steady preparation for the New Testament dispensation which he was to introduce, and of the works of those who wrote after Him a real continuation and striking fulfilment of the old Covenant.
. |
Since The Bible isn't a Single Book, but Books which later formed a Book, Books with many authors. It is necessary to know their authors and their Histories. I found this in Jimdi's links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
Gosh, This is shocking & disturbing indeed, Many Unknown authors for Both Old and New Testaments. Honestly, How can I trust such a Book?
| sraphine973 wrote: |
Indeed hmmm. You see D2D, you place undue importance on knowing who the human instruments were that God used to pen the books of the Bible.
To Christians this is not really a critical matter because the hand and Spirit of God can be detected in the message that is contained within it's pages. Just as creation shows us God's handiwork, to us the Bible does the same. God uses the language of humankind to convey to us a message through His Spirit, and this message is not easily discerned unless God's own Spirit reveals it to you. To this end the Bible must never be approached as a textbook, but must be approached always with reverence and prayerfulness, asking God to reveal Himself to you as you read the words. That is why the language it is written in is not that important to us either. God's Spirit can speak to us regardles of whether the words are in Hebrew, Greek, Italian or Mandarin.
It is truly a universal book because it does not depend on human language to deliver it's message, but God's language, the Spirit's language. You don't have to be really clever to understand the Bible, just humble of Spirit:
Matthew 11
25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Angie. |
That was Lovely, Angie.
Can I ask you few Questions about the Text in the Bible? I seriously believe the Spirit of God isn't actually helping me in understanding them.. So wil you Help me?
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sraphine973
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Ok, The English Translations whether it's King James Version or even if it's Jimdi's recomended Douay Version, I don't know which Greek Word was used for "Only SOn or Only Begotten", both these Books Translate this Word as begotten for many Sons of God.
See this
Douady Rhiems Bible Psalms 2:7 "The Lord hath said to me: Thou art my son, this day have I begotten thee"
King James Version Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee".
God also calls many of his Prophet as his Sons.
Now considering John's Only Begotten and comparing it to Psalms 2:7, it says that God already had a Son, a begotten Son. How Jesus can be his First and Only Begotten Son? Can you tell me Which Word is used as Begotten in Psalms 2:7? I agree, John's Only Gospel records such statement Which refers as an Only Begotten Son, Ok, what about Biblical verses like Psalms 2:7? John 3:16 rejects Psalms 2:7, or Psalms 2:7 Questions John 3:16? Psalms was written before John's Gospel, So shall We say John expressed his super Love for Jesus and actually rejected Psalms 2:7?
Psalm 2:7 uses the Hebrew word yâlad which means literally to beget, to bear or to birth or be delivered of a child. Psalm 2 is known to be a prophetic writing about Messiah, and yes it was written hundreds od years before John's Gospel. But the OT is full of prophecies about Messiah. That is why the Jews have been waiting for him for thousands of Years. Psalm 2 has nothing to do with King David. God did not literally beget King David. Verse 12 says; Kiss the Son (H1248). Here son is used as a title meaning the heir (apparent to the throne). The heir to King David's throne is none other than King Messiah. He is the one to whom God gives "the heathens for His inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for His possession". King Davids kingdom certainly did not stretch to that extent, but King Messiah's will.
How is Jesus the only begotten of the Father, and no other? Because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and He was conceived in flesh. Begotten,not made, not created, of one being with the Father.
Adam was not a son in the same way. He was created of God and God breathed His Spirit into him. We are made the same way as Adam. God creates us as humankind with a human living soul and spirit, then God breathes His Spirit into us. But no human can compare to the way Jesus came into the world.
Ok, Why Different Churches adding and removing Books? Don't you consider it Wrong? Word of God is the Word of God which can't be edited, added or removed! This is a Logical criteria. So how can you justify such actions? As far as I know, Every Church claims to be inspired by The Holy Spirit. So Holy Spirit guiding Different People with Different theories?
OK this is very briefly and by no means covers all details:
Different Churches (Catholic and Protestant) have a different Canon for the OT only. The NT is exactly the same for both groups. How this came about? In the early Church, the translation of the Hebew OT that was read was the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the most ancient translation of the OT. This was widely read because many of the Jews in 1st century Judea were Hellenized and spoke Greek. Greek was the common language for Jews and Gentiles alike in the area where Jesus and His desciples taught. So it was natural that the Septuagint was the book that was used. Remember the NT had not yet been written. The cannon for the Palestinian Jews (Pharisees , Saducees etc) had at that time never been definitely set for everyone. That is why he Saducees only included the 5 books of Moses (Torah) for their Canon while the Pharisees had the Torah and the books of the Prophets. The Hellenistic Jews had all these plus all the books of the Inter-Testamental period. ie the period between the two Testaments, the Old and the New. Why are these books important to Catholics? Because these are the books that were written between the last writings of the Old Testament and the appearance of Christ, and the story of the Jews at this time is of crucial importance because it sets the stage for the Gospel story. A lot of what happened in this period was prophesied by the prophet Daniel. If you want to read a bit more about this period this is quite brief:
http://www.gotquestions.org/intertestamental-period.html
Now to understand why Catholics and Orthodox include the Deuterocanonical books in the Canon, and Protestants don't, you have to understand how these books were regarded by the various groups of Jews and by the Church throughout it's history. This article might help:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm
Since The Bible isn't a Single Book, but Books which later formed a Book, Books with many authors. It is necessary to know their authors and their Histories. I found this in Jimdi's links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible
Gosh, This is shocking & disturbing indeed, Many Unknown authors for Both Old and New Testaments. Honestly, How can I trust such a Book?
Yes, why not?
I mean it really is not that much different to the history of the Quran. Who was the author of the Quran?
Now to answer this question you will have to consider that the Quran existed only as a recitation for many years after the prophet. It was not written down during the lifetime of the prophet. It was only written down when it was feared that some of the recitation would be lost when some of the reciters were dying in battle.
Add to that fact that Uthman revised the Quran and destroyed all previous copies, and no pre-Uthman Quran exists today for comparison.
Now you believe that Muhammad was the author of the Quran because that is what TRADITION teaches you, but some scholars would dispute that on the basis of the above facts about the history of the Quran.
It is the same thing with the Bible. eg Most of the stories in Genesis cannot have been known through first hand knowledge by Moses since he was not around when the earth was created, but these stories were passed down word of mouth through many generations before they were written down.
Also, in the early years of the Church, the Apostles taught the people directly word of mouth before things began to be written down. Now if this oral knowledge was passed down to the community directly by the Apostle John and then a disciple of John's in that community eventually put all those oral teachings down in written form, is it not true to say that John is still the author? Tradition teaches us that John is the author and there is internal evidence in the text that proves this. The same goes for the other Gospels and books of the NT.
Now you either believe and trust God to preserve His word as He promised, or you don't.
Can I ask you few Questions about the Text in the Bible? I seriously believe the Spirit of God isn't actually helping me in understanding them.. So wil you Help me?
Sure, ask away. And remember:
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
All that is required is humility and sincerity in the asking and seeking.
Angie.
P.S. Give me your addy privately and I will send a copy of that book to you.
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sraphine973
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: | Hey, What about Unitarians? According to Paul, The Belief of Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ is enough to be a Christian. ezkl9four believes in it.. Why do you think her Information lacks the real Christianity? Where do you two differ and Why?
Yall are basically speaking of Catholism. Do you consider that you should be a Catholic and believe in the Catholic Bible to become a Christian? Why I can't be a Protestant, Mormon or Unitarian Christian and Believer of their Bible(s)? |
No I am not speaking of Catholicism. There are tenets of faith which are common to most mainstream Christians. My advice to you about ezkl9four was to save you confusion. If I want to know what Muslims believe and I look to the Amadiyyas for this, I'm only going to confuse myself. I would look to what features are common to the Sunni and Shias as a starting point..
Well I doubt that according to Paul it is enough to be a Christian if you believe in the Crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. You have to take the sum total of what Paul said along with what all the other writers of the NT had to say.You also have to recognise and believe who Christ was.
Still I am of the opinion all who believe in God are on a journey of faith. We start we no faith, progress to little faith and hopefully keep growing to fullness of faith. If we let God's Spirit lead us.
If you want a definition of what a card carrying Christian is supposed to believe in, well that is defined in the Apostles Creed. These are the essentials of faith common to all who want to be designated as Christian.
So no you do not have to be a Catholic to be called a Christian.
And I do not denigrate anyone's belief when they are truly seeking the face of God.
Jesus said that we must love the Lord our God with all our heart with all our soul and with all our mind. And to love others as ourselves. (Matthew 22:37-39)
I firmly trust that if we are truly focused on God, it is God's own Spirit who will guide and lead us into all truth about Himself.
Trouble is most people are focused on proving everyone else wrong and that they alone are right. When this is what drives us, we have taken our focus off God and onto ourselves.
Angie.
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Haq al Lugi
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Deserve2Die"] | jimdi3 wrote: |
I see, just a quick Question, What is a Protestant Christian and a Catholic Christian? There Differences?
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(taking you seriously) A Protestant is a Christian that flowed from the leadership of Martin Luthur. He led a shizm, or split, from the Roman Catholic Church. It is confusing, for sure. Generally speaking, Protestants don't look to the Pope for guidance, nor co-mingle funds. The methods of worship are different btween the two groups, but there are more similarities than differences.
I don't know whether the Mormons would be Protestants or not. The Mormons are followers of John Smith, and later Brigham Young, who have their own Bible. They are Christians, for sure.
Here is the good news. Currently, these various branches of Christianity do not engage in running gun battles in the streets, advocate violence for any cause, nor bomb each others places of worship.
| Quote: |
Why the Protestant and Catholic Bible(s) are Different? Since It's the Word of GOD which can't be added or removed according to their Church's Intrest, am I right? Dont you think?
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Martin Luthur found problems with 3 books, the Maccabes. He didn't like them, and he was the Protestant leader.
Where did you get this stuff about "can't be added or removed"? That is bunk. Stuff has been added and removed to the "Word" since it began.
In case you haven't noticed, God changes His mind on a pretty regular basis in religious circles. |
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Rhoda2
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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These things happen. The satanic verses existed before Rushdie and Khomeni made them household names. But where are they now?
SATANIC VERSES
the infamous verses in the Qur'an where Muhammad was said to have been inspired by Satan concerning three of the idols worshipped by the Arabs, and was later said to be abrogated. Muhammad was said to have said one day to the Quraish, "Do you see Al Lat and Al Uzza, and Manat the third idol besides? They are the Sublime Birds, and their intercession is desirable indeed!" The famous traditionalist Tabari wrote, (Annals, vol I,3, p. 1192), "When the Quraish heard these verses, they were full with a great joy, and they prostrate themselves, Muslims and non Muslims." [I translate from French, please excuse my English] The two last sentences were abrogated after a while, because they were in contradiction with the unity of God, and were replaced by: "What? Shall you have male progeny and God female? This were indeed an unfair partition." (Maxime Rodinson, Qur'an, LIII, The Star, 19-20)
Further reading:
* The Satanic Verses (the historical background, short)
* Muhammad and the Satanic Verses
* The historical data regarding the Satanic Verses (detailed, comprehensive)
* The Satanic Verses and their implications for the Miracle of the Qur'an
* SALMAN RUSHDIE and his "The Satanic Verses"
See also the articles listed under Muhammad and Satan. |
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: |
Psalm 2:7 uses the Hebrew word yâlad which means literally to beget, to bear or to birth or be delivered of a child. Psalm 2 is known to be a prophetic writing about Messiah, and yes it was written hundreds od years before John's Gospel. But the OT is full of prophecies about Messiah. That is why the Jews have been waiting for him for thousands of Years. Psalm 2 has nothing to do with King David. God did not literally beget King David. Verse 12 says; Kiss the Son (H1248). Here son is used as a title meaning the heir (apparent to the throne). The heir to King David's throne is none other than King Messiah. He is the one to whom God gives "the heathens for His inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for His possession". King Davids kingdom certainly did not stretch to that extent, but King Messiah's will. How is Jesus the only begotten of the Father, and no other? Because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and He was conceived in flesh. Begotten,not made, not created, of one being with the Father.
Adam was not a son in the same way. He was created of God and God breathed His Spirit into him. We are made the same way as Adam. God creates us as humankind with a human living soul and spirit, then God breathes His Spirit into us. But no human can compare to the way Jesus came into the world.. |
Hi Angie, Hebrew Word "yalad" resembles with the Arabic Word "Yalid" used for "beget". I love the similarity of Hebrew and Arabic.
The Book of Psalms according to Wikipedia was written by more than 7 authors (according to Traditions) and by Various authors recording Oral History according to Scholars. Psalms 2:7 in Hebrew uses the Word "Yalad" which means "beget", which in English should be taken as "beget". The Gospel of John uses the Greek Word "monogenēs" which means "Only" begotten, Now this "Only" Word adds and forms an argument, at the other hand, Hebrew and Greek Word for "begotten" remains the same. According to Judaism, the term "son of God" is rarely used in the sense of "messiah, or anointed ones." Psalm 2 refers to God's appointed king of Zion as both God's messiah (an anointed king) and like a son of God.
According to Wikipedia, In a more specialized sense, "son of God" is a title applied only to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Samuel 7: 14, with reference to King David and those of his descendants who carried on his dynasty; comp. Psalm 89:27, 2 .
In my Bible studies, Now where I see Jesus using the Word "Only Son" for him. And according to Jesus again, Anyone can be the Son of God by being his Obedient, Infact NT records Jesus himself calling all his lisenteners as Sons and daughters of God in John 10:22 giving them the refrence of Psalms 82:6.
Psalms 2:7 says "Today I have begotten thee". I agree the OT is full of Christ's prophecies, But there are other Prophecies as well, not every other Prophecy is referred to the Christ only. Such as "Isaiah 7:14". You say Psalms 2:7 has nothing to do with King David, Why not? GOD is speaking to David there right? And to him He says "Today I have begotten thee". You said "because GOD didn't literally begotten David". Does God begets? Did GOD literally begotten Jesus pbuh? and that's why He's the Only Son? Also, can you please tell me What is the Exact Word for "SON" in Greek?
I believe the Translation errors are the real problem. Now you see, In King James Version Acts 3:26 uses the Word "Son Jesus", So does the Douay Version, But the New King James Version instead of "Son" uses "Servant". Does the Greek Word for "Son and Servant" is the Same and Single Word with entirely 2 different meanings?
You said:-How is Jesus the only begotten of the Father, and no other? Because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and He was conceived in flesh. Begotten,not made, not created, of one being with the Father.
Yet, there is another Candidate fulfilling the same positions, I have talked about it with jonfan at WI. Copy pasting it here
Heb 7:1-10 For this Melchizedek, the king of Salem, a priest of the Most High God, who gave Abraham his blessing, meeting him when he came back after putting the kings to death, And to whom Abraham gave a tenth part of everything which he had, being first named King of righteousness, and then in addition, King of Salem, that is to say, King of peace; Being without father or mother, or family, having no birth or end to his life, being made like the Son of God, is a priest for ever………………………9-10 “ And we may say that in Abraham, eve n Levi, who has a right to take the tenth part, gave it; Because he was still in his father's body when Melchizedek came to him”.
Jesus pbuh is not unique at all according to the Bible.
OK this is very briefly and by no means covers all details:Different Churches (Catholic and Protestant) have a different Canon for the OT only. The NT is exactly the same for both groups. How this came about? In the early Church, the translation of the Hebew OT that was read was the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the most ancient translation of the OT. This was widely read because many of the Jews in 1st century Judea were Hellenized and spoke Greek. Greek was the common language for Jews and Gentiles alike in the area where Jesus and His desciples taught. So it was natural that the Septuagint was the book that was used. Remember the NT had not yet been written. The cannon for the Palestinian Jews (Pharisees , Saducees etc) had at that time never been definitely set for everyone. That is why he Saducees only included the 5 books of Moses (Torah) for their Canon while the Pharisees had the Torah and the books of the Prophets. The Hellenistic Jews had all these plus all the books of the Inter-Testamental period. ie the period between the two Testaments, the Old and the New. Why are these books important to Catholics? Because these are the books that were written between the last writings of the Old Testament and the appearance of Christ, and the story of the Jews at this time is of crucial importance because it sets the stage for the Gospel story. A lot of what happened in this period was prophesied by the prophet Daniel. If you want to read a bit more about this period this is quite brief:
http://www.gotquestions.org/intertestamental-period.html Now to understand why Catholics and Orthodox include the Deuterocanonical books in the Canon, and Protestants don't, you have to understand how these books were regarded by the various groups of Jews and by the Church throughout it's history. This article might help:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm
I see. Which OT (Catholic's or Protestant's) is exactly the same of Jews? Also, Douay Rheims is a Catholic Bible or Protestant?
Do you Protestant believe that such story Books of the Jews at that Time isn't actually the Word of God but Oral Histories?
The link you posted says
"It should be noted that protocanonical and deuterocanonical are modern terms, not having been used before the sixteenth century".
So do Catholics and Protestants believe in King James Version which contain all Books (I think?)?
It also says
The circumstances and manner in which these collections were definitely canonized, or adjudged to have a uniquely Divine and authoritative quality.
It is thus seen that canonicity is a correlative of inspiration, being the extrinsic dignity belonging to writings which have been officially declared as of sacred origin and authority.
Does it mean that the Collections and adjusment of these Books has something Divine authority in it? I'm not sure if I'm getting the exact meanings, Does it say that the Divine quality.. or the Holy Spirit decides the method of canonizing? Do you believe that the Church was authorized (By Holy spirit as they claim) to decide which Books shall be read and which not? or taken out of the Bible? Also, Do protestants believe the Other 7 removed Book to be the Word of God also?
Yes, why not?
I mean it really is not that much different to the history of the Quran. Who was the author of the Quran?
Now to answer this question you will have to consider that the Quran existed only as a recitation for many years after the prophet. It was not written down during the lifetime of the prophet. It was only written down when it was feared that some of the recitation would be lost when some of the reciters were dying in battle. Add to that fact that Uthman revised the Quran and destroyed all previous copies, and no pre-Uthman Quran exists today for comparison.Now you believe that Muhammad was the author of the Quran because that is what TRADITION teaches you, but some scholars would dispute that on the basis of the above facts about the history of the Quran.
Well, it is different than the History of Quran. Why? Because even after looking through a Non-Muslim lense, You will never find anyother author of the Quran other than Muhammad pbuh. The Book holds the only source which is Muhammad pbuh and Muslims/Non-Muslims believe that fact. Also, The Bible doesn't hold any "specific" criteria/method of its preservation, placing & memorising the OT or the NT but Quran does. I absolutely agree that No pre-Uthman Quran exists Today for Comparison, still the Book holds a "100% Divine" Quality according to Non-Muslims scholars, and Muslims don't believe Uthman to be a Prophet but a Man with lots of Weaknesess. Also, Uthman didn't revised Quran. The Words of Quran were simply shifted to Writings from Hearts. Also, it was not a One man's Job, The Whole Muslim community which were in Thousands were there to see and confirms things happening. I absolutely don't believe in Traditions without confirmations.
If u ask me, Why in the name of Goodness I would believe a Man called Muhammad visited an Angel names Gabriel in a Dark Cave? Still, If I believe it, Why? Because The Book itself is Wonderful and fulfills all Divine Qualities, WHICH, makes me, to believe in the Stories related to it. HOW can I believe and be sure if indeed a Man names Muhammad ever existed? Still If I believe it, WHY? Because the Book by his name MAKES me to believe in his existance. Why in the name HEAVEN I would believe a Women names MARY said she has given Birth to a Child without a Father? Still, if I believe it, Why? Because the Glorious and a Wonderful Book Quran which fulfills the Divine Qualities says So.
So, Not because of Traditions, The Book itself says "It was revealed to Muhammad". Since the Book satisfies My needs, I would surely believe in it's every single claim. I hope you got my neutral and open minded theories of judging the stories and then believing in them. Frankly Angie, I have no space of Blind Faith in my Life, I can put anything on Trial if it disturbes me, either Bible & the Quran. Both Books claim
Bible "God is not the Author of Confusion".
Quran "Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from other than GOD, they would have found in it numerous contradictions"
So What I'm doing is, making a comparison to desolve the Confusion. And it's my right to Judge.
It is the same thing with the Bible. eg Most of the stories in Genesis cannot have been known through first hand knowledge by Moses since he was not around when the earth was created, but these stories were passed down word of mouth through many generations before they were written down. Also, in the early years of the Church, the Apostles taught the people directly word of mouth before things began to be written down. Now if this oral knowledge was passed down to the community directly by the Apostle John and then a disciple of John's in that community eventually put all those oral teachings down in written form, is it not true to say that John is still the author? Tradition teaches us that John is the author and there is internal evidence in the text that proves this. The same goes for the other Gospels and books of the NT.
Now you either believe and trust God to preserve His word as He promised, or you don't.
As I said, Quran has a specfic method of Memorization. Torah or the Gospel doesn't has such. Whenever I open the Bible, The first thing comes in my Mind is "GOD is not the author of Confusion". On this method and Criteria given by the Bible itself, I judge the Book. I'm sorry Angie, but the absolutely doesn't fulfills this condition. I won't wait for a Second and Agree as Many Christian Scholars themselves say "Yes These Books should be Taken as Historical records with a caution". BUT not the WORD OF GOD, Because WORD of God should be Perfect! Absolutely Perfect. I also don't say that the Bible should be written in the Quranic Style like the First Person (GOD) speaking to the Second Person (Muhammad). If the Bible is a Holy Book, it shouldnt contain, lies and contradictions. "Only a Bible illiterate would deny these & other Problems"
The Book of John is written in the "Name" of John, You would agree with me that John himself didn't wrote his Gospel but his material or Material on his name was collected as Truth and later written by some one else (His disciple as you say). Alright then, Why shall I believe it to be the Word of God? Why not just as a Good Christian Book written in the name of John? Does John's writter claims to be inspired by GOD? No, nor any of the other three.
[color=darkblue]Sure, ask away. And remember:
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
All that is required is humility and sincerity in the asking and seeking.
Angie.
P.S. Give me your addy privately and I will send a copy of that book to you.[/quote]
Alright Angie, I will ask inshAllah.
check your Pm please, Thank you so much for being Kind, Princess  .
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| jimdi3 wrote: | | I think what is generally forgotten is that the Quran is not a single book ... It is a collection of different booklets which were delivered by Muhammad over 27 years |
By Muhammad pbuh alone in 27 Years. That's the right way to say that statement.
| jimdi3 wrote: | | These separate booklets were in circulation long before the death of Muhammad and were put together after much editing years after his death ..... some people even wondering if it was Muhammad's will that it should be done. |
I Agree Imaam jimdi
Now, your Bible says "GOD is not the author of Confusion". So We may well ask, Quranic "Editors", Those illiterate, uncultured and idiot Desert Arabs were more Wise and clever in Editing a Book than the Cultured, Educated and Brilliant "Authors/Editors" of the Bible?
Falsehood by it's nature is bound to Perish, Brother jimdi. Quran till Today surviving as a Single Book filled with Miracles and Wisdom, Not by Muhammad's Will, but GOD's Will! Masha- Allah!
Happy birthday to you again, Brother.
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Haq al Lugi"] | Deserve2Die wrote: | | jimdi3 wrote: |
I see, just a quick Question, What is a Protestant Christian and a Catholic Christian? There Differences?
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(taking you seriously) A Protestant is a Christian that flowed from the leadership of Martin Luthur. He led a shizm, or split, from the Roman Catholic Church. It is confusing, for sure. Generally speaking, Protestants don't look to the Pope for guidance, nor co-mingle funds. The methods of worship are different btween the two groups, but there are more similarities than differences.
I don't know whether the Mormons would be Protestants or not. The Mormons are followers of John Smith, and later Brigham Young, who have their own Bible. They are Christians, for sure.
Here is the good news. Currently, these various branches of Christianity do not engage in running gun battles in the streets, advocate violence for any cause, nor bomb each others places of worship.
| Quote: |
Why the Protestant and Catholic Bible(s) are Different? Since It's the Word of GOD which can't be added or removed according to their Church's Intrest, am I right? Dont you think?
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Martin Luthur found problems with 3 books, the Maccabes. He didn't like them, and he was the Protestant leader.
Where did you get this stuff about "can't be added or removed"? That is bunk. Stuff has been added and removed to the "Word" since it began.
In case you haven't noticed, God changes His mind on a pretty regular basis in religious circles. |
Who are you Lugi!!!
Thanks for the information. I will later post my questions to you regarding what you have wrote. Are you a Protestant?
Untill then, Eat well and sleep tight.
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Haq al Lugi
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: |
| haq wrote: |
Where did you get this stuff about "can't be added or removed"?
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Are you a Protestant?
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OK. Here is the way I roll. I answer YOUR questions, then you answer mine. Any other response gets silence. Some people like me best when I'm silent, however, and maybe you are one of them. I'm truly interested in where you got the idea that the Bible has some kinda immutability characteristic. We can discuss my religious trending later, k? |
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Magnacarta
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: | Reminder:-
I'm not here to preach Islam, I'm here to ask WhyKuffar. Please avoid Islamic things while discussing Christianity and the Bible. Also, Athiests can post their "inputs" somewhere else, or else I'll pass over their Dead bodies, Oh, not their dead bodies, their post's dead body. 
Halaloyaaaaa |
Like you avoid discussing (or should I say "dissing") Christian things on WhyIslam (a place to discuss Islam) D2D?
Anyhow, the key difference between your perspective and the actual practice of Christianity as I apply/experience it is that I only need to know the commandments that Jesus taught to receive God's Grace. The commandments are: Love God with all your heart, Love yourself, Love your neighbors and Love your enemies. Kind of a theme eh? Jesus told us that we would recieve another "comforter" who would witness the truth to us when we accepted His offer of salvation. This is the Holy Spirit, which speaks the truth to the heart of the believer. No need for scholarship or "prove this text", etc. etc.
I think you get lost in the details sometimes and miss the big picture of Christianity. You must get to KNOW Jesus, via a real relationship (yep He lives and breaths to this day in spirit and is available to all who seek Him).
Don't be fooled though into thinking these commandments he gave were "easy" just because they were simple. And if you need to know "how" to worship God, Jesus gave the example. No need to be worried you are doing it wrong though, if your heart is intent with faith on fulfilling the commandment to LOVE  then odds are you will not do anything that will land you in "darkness". Remember those who were given mercy who were given this simply because they believed, not because they had performed rituals or met any other conditions. Their faith (and God's TRUTH) was written on their hearts, and this is what Jesus wanted us to remember.
Now, can you sum up your faith in such a beautiful and simple manner?
Or do you need to seek an expert (another human who is no better than you?) for rulings on every little detail of your religion? Your turn....
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sraphine973
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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You said "because GOD didn't literally begotten David". Does God begets? Did GOD literally begotten Jesus pbuh? and that's why He's the Only Son? Also, can you please tell me What is the Exact Word for "SON" in Greek?
Did God literally beget Jesus? The answer for us Christians is yes. Jesus was not created but begotten. He had no human father, only a human mother. So the Father who begot Him is God. Jesus often referred to God as MY Father.
The only way we can become true sons and daughters of God is to be born again from above of water and of the Spirit just as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5.
How are we born of the Spirit? ONLY THROUGH Jesus Christ who came to make this possible. When we believe in Jesus, we are Baptised through water. Through water Baptism we are united to Christ's death for the remission of our sins.We are washed clean by His death and our sins are removed. We die to our old life of sin and we are reborn to the new life of the Spirit which Christ gives us:
John the Baptist said:
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
John 1:32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."
And Jesus said:
John 4:10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."
11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"
13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."
John 7:37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[c] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Acts 1:4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit."
As to the word for "son" in the New Testament, generally the word uihos is used but in Acts 3:26, a completely different word pais is used which can be translated in various ways. This is what Strong's word dictionary says:
G3816
παῖς
pais
paheece
Perhaps from G3817; a boy (as often beaten with impunity), or (by analogy) a girl, and (generally) a child; specifically a slave or servant (especially a minister to a king; and by eminence to God): - child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.
That is why it is sometimes translated as son and sometimes as servant.
You said:-How is Jesus the only begotten of the Father, and no other? Because the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and He was conceived in flesh. Begotten,not made, not created, of one being with the Father.
Yet, there is another Candidate fulfilling the same positions, I have talked about it with jonfan at WI. Copy pasting it here
Heb 7:1-10 For this Melchizedek, the king of Salem, a priest of the Most High God, who gave Abraham his blessing, meeting him when he came back after putting the kings to death, And to whom Abraham gave a tenth part of everything which he had, being first named King of righteousness, and then in addition, King of Salem, that is to say, King of peace; Being without father or mother, or family, having no birth or end to his life, being made like the Son of God, is a priest for ever………………………9-10 “ And we may say that in Abraham, eve n Levi, who has a right to take the tenth part, gave it; Because he was still in his father's body when Melchizedek came to him”.
Jesus pbuh is not unique at all according to the Bible.
Interesting that you should mention Melchizedek. Scholars believe that Melchizedek was a prefigurement of the Christ.
The appearance of this mysterious Melchizedek in Genesis is rather intriguing. In the OT he is only mentioned in Genesis 14, and in Psalms 110:4
The reason that Hebrews says that he had no father and mother is because nothing much is known about him, except that:
He was a non-Israelite Priest-King.
He has unknown origins, nobody knows when he was born when he died and who his parents were, and so he seems to be an "eternal" figure.
His name means King of Peace (because Genesis says that he was King of Salem which means peace) and King of Righteousness (which is the literal meaning of Melchizedek). BTW, Salem is identified with Jerusalem.
That he was a Priest of the Most High God at a time when no one seemed to know the one true God any more, except Abram who had been called by Him.
He blesses Abram and gives him bread and wine, in the same way that Jesus gave bread and wine to His discipes.
Abram gives Melchizedek tithes. Under the Mosaic Law, God is given tithes.
It could be that the author of Hebrews is making an allegorical comparison between Melchizedek and Christ. The key word in Hebrews7 is verse 3 which uses the Greek word aphomoioo which means to "assimilate closely" or "to make like",̄which seems to be saying that Melchizedek resembles the Son of God, but it's unclear in what sense this is meant. What it appears to be saying is that Melchizedech is a divine mediator, immortal and pre-existent High Priest just as Jesus Christ is.
It is interesting that Philo of Alexandria (Leg. All. III 79-82; cf. Congr. 99 and Abr. 235) treats Melchizedek allegorically and tells us that as high priest, he represents Reason (Greek LOGOS)
We remember that in the Gospels, especially John's Gospel Christ is called the Word (Logos)of God.
I see. Which OT (Catholic's or Protestant's) is exactly the same of Jews? Also, Douay Rheims is a Catholic Bible or Protestant?
Do you Protestant believe that such story Books of the Jews at that Time isn't actually the Word of God but Oral Histories?
The Douay Rheims is a Catholic Translation of the Bible. But you can also get Catholic editions of the NAB and other translations. Just look for ones that say "Catholic edition" or " with Deuterocanonicals if you want to read these books. There is a NAB (Catholic) here:
http://bibleresources.bible.com/bible_read.php
Depends on which Jews you are referring to.
Catholics have the books that were part of the Septuagint used by the Hellenistic Jews. These are also part of the Orthodox canon as well as that of the Ethiopian Jews today..
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson/ant304/projects/projects97/kingp/books.of.the.canon.html
The Canon of Christian Scripture, as approved by the Catholic Church at the Council of Rome in A.D. 382 and reaffirmed at the Councils of Hippo in A.D. 393, Carthage in A.D. 397, II Nicæa in A.D. 787, Florence in A.D. 1442, Trent in A.D. 1546, Vatican I in A.D. 1870, and Vatican II in A.D. 1965, contains 46 books in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. The Councils of II Nicæa is recognized by Protestants as ecumenical councils. Protestants accept the New Testament Canon approved by these councils, however they reject inclusion of seven books of the Old Testament, favoring Luther's opinion of these books over that of the ecumenical councils.
Protestants hold to the books that Palestinian Jews believed were inspired.
Some Protestants still include these books in their Bible in a separate section but believe they are of historical importance but not inspired.
"It should be noted that protocanonical and deuterocanonical are modern terms, not having been used before the sixteenth century".
So do Catholics and Protestants believe in King James Version which contain all Books (I think?)?
It also says
The circumstances and manner in which these collections were definitely canonized, or adjudged to have a uniquely Divine and authoritative quality.
It is thus seen that canonicity is a correlative of inspiration, being the extrinsic dignity belonging to writings which have been officially declared as of sacred origin and authority.
Does it mean that the Collections and adjusment of these Books has something Divine authority in it? I'm not sure if I'm getting the exact meanings, Does it say that the Divine quality.. or the Holy Spirit decides the method of canonizing? Do you believe that the Church was authorized (By Holy spirit as they claim) to decide which Books shall be read and which not? or taken out of the Bible? Also, Do protestants believe the Other 7 removed Book to be the Word of God also?
The KJV does not contain all books as Catholic and Orthodox editions of the Bible do.
Catholics believe that only the Church has the authority to decide what is inspired and what is not. It was at the various Councils mentioned in my link above that this issue was looked at. If you look at that link it tells you which groups today (Christian and Jew) hold each book as canon.
As I mentioned before, some Protestants include the Deuterocanonicals (which they refer to by the term Apocrypha) in their Bibles , but do not consider them inspired and only value them for their historical value.
It is interesting to point out here that Jesus never argued with the Saducees or Pharisees about what books should be considered sacred. eg Whith the Saducees who only considered the 5 books of Moses as inspired and did not believe in the resurrection, He argued for the resurrection from the books they DID beleive in.(Matthew 22:23-33)
Angie.
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sraphine973
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Haq al Lugi wrote: | | Deserve2Die wrote: | | jimdi3 wrote: |
I see, just a quick Question, What is a Protestant Christian and a Catholic Christian? There Differences?
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(taking you seriously) A Protestant is a Christian that flowed from the leadership of Martin Luthur. He led a shizm, or split, from the Roman Catholic Church. It is confusing, for sure. Generally speaking, Protestants don't look to the Pope for guidance, nor co-mingle funds. The methods of worship are different btween the two groups, but there are more similarities than differences.
I don't know whether the Mormons would be Protestants or not. The Mormons are followers of John Smith, and later Brigham Young, who have their own Bible. They are Christians, for sure.
Here is the good news. Currently, these various branches of Christianity do not engage in running gun battles in the streets, advocate violence for any cause, nor bomb each others places of worship.
Why the Protestant and Catholic Bible(s) are Different? Since It's the Word of GOD which can't be added or removed according to their Church's Intrest, am I right? Dont you think?
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Martin Luthur found problems with 3 books, the Maccabes. He didn't like them, and he was the Protestant leader.
Where did you get this stuff about "can't be added or removed"? That is bunk. Stuff has been added and removed to the "Word" since it began.
In case you haven't noticed, God changes His mind on a pretty regular basis in religious circles. |
Well actually Luther's argument was initially with the corruption in the Church.
Reportedly he did have problems with some of the books, but these included books like Revelation and James. Apparently he had considered removing them but his peers cautioned him against it and to go along with "tradition".
Angie.
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Magnacarta wrote: |
Like you avoid discussing (or should I say "dissing") Christian things on WhyIslam (a place to discuss Islam) D2D?
Anyhow, the key difference between your perspective and the actual practice of Christianity as I apply/experience it is that I only need to know the commandments that Jesus taught to receive God's Grace. The commandments are: Love God with all your heart, Love yourself, Love your neighbors and Love your enemies. Kind of a theme eh? Jesus told us that we would recieve another "comforter" who would witness the truth to us when we accepted His offer of salvation. This is the Holy Spirit, which speaks the truth to the heart of the believer. No need for scholarship or "prove this text", etc. etc.
I think you get lost in the details sometimes and miss the big picture of Christianity. You must get to KNOW Jesus, via a real relationship (yep He lives and breaths to this day in spirit and is available to all who seek Him).
Don't be fooled though into thinking these commandments he gave were "easy" just because they were simple. And if you need to know "how" to worship God, Jesus gave the example. No need to be worried you are doing it wrong though, if your heart is intent with faith on fulfilling the commandment to LOVE then odds are you will not do anything that will land you in "darkness". Remember those who were given mercy who were given this simply because they believed, not because they had performed rituals or met any other conditions. Their faith (and God's TRUTH) was written on their hearts, and this is what Jesus wanted us to remember.
Now, can you sum up your faith in such a beautiful and simple manner?
Or do you need to seek an expert (another human who is no better than you?) for rulings on every little detail of your religion? Your turn.... |
First of all, I have never avoided to discuss anything, and I mean it, ANYTHING on WI. Look Magnacarta, Yall are actually "DONE" talking to me with all your Christian excuses and gymnastics. And I'm done doing almost yall MY Dawah at WI. I joined this Forum not to debate, or to argue but to have my Lost Freinds back. So the First shocking thing I encountered by a Christian Friend here was "D2D Knows nothing of Real Christianity or He has a Lack of Biblical Knowledge". SO, I asked them to Teach me and correct me where I'm Wrong.
Second thing, Your above post is based on Emotions and Sentiments, Sorry I don't have any place for them in my Life, I don't risk my Salvation.
Let me learn please, I'm not here to tell WHYISLAM, I'm here to ASK Whykuffar! On WI, Christians Athiests and Jews don't get tired of asking Questions about Islam and The Quran, So don't you think It's my MY Turn? Yes It is. Allow me to clear my Misconceptions about Christianity and The Bible, if Indeed I had any. Let's see.
God bless
D2D
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: |
No I am not speaking of Catholicism. There are tenets of faith which are common to most mainstream Christians. My advice to you about ezkl9four was to save you confusion. If I want to know what Muslims believe and I look to the Amadiyyas for this, I'm only going to confuse myself. I would look to what features are common to the Sunni and Shias as a starting point... |
I agree Angie. But According to Paul, If Christ didnot Die and raised from the Dead, All our Good News and your Faith is in Vain". The Bible itself giving me a Major requirement for the Christian Belief. It's the same like Even if you Believe Jesus was God or God's Son, STILL, if He didn't Die and raised from the Dead, Your Faith is in Vain". The Only Common Belief of having a Faith between Christians is the Belief of Crucifixion and Resurrection because Salvation is dependent upon it. I talked alot with ezkl9four, For me, She's a Christian because She has a serious Faith in Crucifixion and Resurrection. So according to Paul, Her Faith isn't Vain, neither She follows the Law, So according to Paul, SHes not fallen from the Grace even if she doesn't believe Jesus to be God or literally Begotten Son. Islamic criteria to recognise a Muslim is the Faith in Allah as the One True God and in All Prophets From Adam to Jesus, and Finally in Muhammad to be the Last Messenger and a Seal to Prophets. Quran as the last revelation to God. So whoever says this is a Muslim either Sunni and Shia.
Ahmadies are not Muslims because their Theology conflicts with the Basic & Fundamental Islamic Teachings, that's why they are not recognised as Muslims nowhere. If a Muslim does Adultory or Gamble, Kills etc, He's a Sinner and not a Good Practicing Muslim and Will be Punished by the Law and By the GOD on the Judgment Day. BUT He's not a NON-Muslim just because of his Belief in the Fundamental Teachings. Islam Teaches Faith with Work (Law Practice) like all other Prophets including Jesus pbuh.
What are the Fundamental teachings of Christianity in which all Christian sects believe in other than the Crucifixion and Resurrection Belief? As far as My search. If there is anything else, please share with me.
| sraphine973 wrote: | Well I doubt that according to Paul it is enough to be a Christian if you believe in the Crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. You have to take the sum total of what Paul said along with what all the other writers of the NT had to say.You also have to recognise and believe who Christ was.
Still I am of the opinion all who believe in God are on a journey of faith. We start we no faith, progress to little faith and hopefully keep growing to fullness of faith. If we let God's Spirit lead us.. |
I absolutely agree, Even According to the Book of 1 John 5:20 as well, Having the Knowledge of One True God through Jesus Christ and believe it to be True is Eternal Life, it doesn't mentions the Crucifixion and Resurrection Belief along that but Paul does. It's the same as Paul majorly conflict with the Teachings of Disciple James.
| sraphine973 wrote: | | If you want a definition of what a card carrying Christian is supposed to believe in, well that is defined in the Apostles Creed. These are the essentials of faith common to all who want to be designated as Christian. So no you do not have to be a Catholic to be called a Christian. And I do not denigrate anyone's belief when they are truly seeking the face of God.. |
That's they way It should be, Yes.
| sraphine973 wrote: | Jesus said that we must love the Lord our God with all our heart with all our soul and with all our mind. And to love others as ourselves. (Matthew 22:37-39)
I firmly trust that if we are truly focused on God, it is God's own Spirit who will guide and lead us into all truth about Himself.
Trouble is most people are focused on proving everyone else wrong and that they alone are right. When this is what drives us, we have taken our focus off God and onto ourselves.
Angie. |
Love our God, Yes absolutely. Still How Jesus convince others to prove their Love for God and have the Eternal Life? He says in Mathew 19:16 "Keep the rules of The Law". And to them Who just say that We love God, beleive in Christ and We are saved etc, Jesus has been recorded saying in the Bible "Not everyone Who calls me Lord Lord shall enter into the Heaven, But that Who doeth the Will of my Father Who is in Heaven, Many will say to me on that Day, O Lord O Lord have we not prophecised in thy name, and in the name show great wonders and miracles and in they name cast out devil? And I will profess unto them, I never Knew you, Depart from me, Ye that work iniquity".
You have to agree on that this is Salvation and eternal life according to Jesus for them who call themselves Christians. What I believe Trouble is, that People innovate other theories for Salvation. Such contradictions of this Major concept Salvation by different theologians like Jesus/Paul/John/James drives every reader crazy.
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Lugi wrote: |
(taking you seriously) A Protestant is a Christian that flowed from the leadership of Martin Luthur. He led a shizm, or split, from the Roman Catholic Church. It is confusing, for sure. Generally speaking, Protestants don't look to the Pope for guidance, nor co-mingle funds. The methods of worship are different btween the two groups, but there are more similarities than differences.. |
Ok, Was Luther inspired?
Why a Christian shall look to the Pope for guidance? Holy Spirit and The Bible is there to guide him anyway. Does the Bible gives such authority to the Pope? Worship methods, Worship Who? God or Jesus or Both?
| Lugi wrote: | I don't know whether the Mormons would be Protestants or not. The Mormons are followers of John Smith, and later Brigham Young, who have their own Bible. They are Christians, for sure.
Here is the good news. Currently, these various branches of Christianity do not engage in running gun battles in the streets, advocate violence for any cause, nor bomb each others places of worship... |
Mormons (Janet Waters on WI) claims that author of Mormon Books are inspired by the Holy spirit as well and their Church runs under the guidance of Prophets. They Believe John Smith to be a Prophet. According to Angelina, Jesus is the Last Prophet. So Mormons are "Kaafir"? Non-Christians?
Thanks for confirming the above seize fire between Christian sects. Congratulations Brother, You should be Proud!
| Lugi wrote: |
Martin Luthur found problems with 3 books, the Maccabes. He didn't like them, and he was the Protestant leader. Where did you get this stuff about "can't be added or removed"? That is bunk. Stuff has been added and removed to the "Word" since it began.
In case you haven't noticed, God changes His mind on a pretty regular basis in religious circles. |
LOL @ God changes his mind... Bogus! Who changes his Mind I don't believe in him to Be God, No. God doesn't changes his Mind, Prophets from Adam to Jesus pbuh preached the single and same thing, "God is One, Worship him alone and keep his Commandments". Laws given to specific Nations according to the Requirements. If an Old Law isn't required in the Time of other Prophet, it was abolished and something better than that had been given to them.
So back to the Topic, He didn't like them? That's funny, don't he believe in them to be the Word of God as Catholics Believe? Was Martin Luther a Prophet? Do he has an authority to reject or take off what he doesn't like in the Book of God?
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Haq al Lugi
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:14 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Deserve2Die"] | Lugi wrote: |
Ok, Was Luther inspired?
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I didn't know him or anything, but he must have been pretty motivated. He dedicated his life to the clergy, so if I had to guess, I would say he had some degree of inspiration.
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Why a Christian shall look to the Pope for guidance? Holy Spirit and The Bible is there to guide him anyway. Does the Bible gives such authority to the Pope? Worship methods, Worship Who? God or Jesus or Both?
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Everyone wants some guidance. Look at the people who come to these internet Islam sites, asking about their behavior. They want someone to justify their lives. The Pope isn't mentioned in the Bible. Christians will draw no distinction between Jesus and God - he is a "partner", remember?
Your sentence above seems to separate them.
| Quote: |
Mormons (Janet Waters on WI) claims that author of Mormon Books are inspired by the Holy spirit as well and their Church runs under the guidance of Prophets. They Believe John Smith to be a Prophet. According to Angelina, Jesus is the Last Prophet. So Mormons are "Kaafir"? Non-Christians?
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The full name of their sect is "The church of Jesus Christ of the Later Day Saints." That means they are definitely, without any doubt Christians.
| Quote: |
Thanks for confirming the above seize fire between Christian sects. Congratulations Brother, You should be Proud!
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Proud? I would describe the feeling as "relieved."
| Quote: |
LOL @ God changes his mind... Bogus! Who changes his Mind I don't believe in him to Be God, No. God doesn't changes his Mind, Prophets from Adam to Jesus pbuh preached the single and same thing, "God is One, Worship him alone and keep his Commandments".
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Wrong D2D. The earliest part of the Bible clearly recognizes the existence of multiple gods. One of the Ten Commandmants is "Have no other Gods before me."
| Quote: |
So back to the Topic, He didn't like them? That's funny, don't he believe in them to be the Word of God as Catholics Believe? Was Martin Luther a Prophet? Do he has an authority to reject or take off what he doesn't like in the Book of God? |
Anyone can interpret any holy book anyway they want anytime. Geez. I learned that watching your boys. Look at the arguments y'all have trying to figger out what a "true Moslem" should do. Y'all are all over the place. |
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sraphine973
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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I guess the point is Haq, the majority believe (with some reason, so people do not stray far from the original faith) that they have the perogative of deciding who or who is not a Muslim or Christian or a Calithumpian, and that those who depart quite drastically from the essential tenets of faith are said to be espousing heretical ideas. Yes I know Catholic and Protestants have labelled each other heretics in the past, but now that the dust has settled, we recognise that each group is still faithful to the essential doctrines set out in the Apostles Creed, and most of us consider each other Christian.
Although Amadiyyas consider themselves Muslim, the majority of Muslims, Sunni and Shia alike, do not consider them so. This is because there are quite serious divergences to the central tenets of the Muslim faith, namely that Muhammad was the last prophet.
Same with Mormons and JW's and many other groups. They may identify themselves as Christian, and that is fine by me. Everyone is on their own journey of faith, but you will find that generally Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants do not recognise them as such because they have departed from the central doctrine set out by the Apostles.
I do not know too much about Mormonism, but from what Janet posts on WI it appears that they believe that Yahweh was one God and Elohim was another. Which actually sounds like Polytheism to me.
On the other hand JW's deny the divinity of Christ completely and I think they believe that He is the Archangel Michael. They are Unitarians a bit like ezkl9four.
Of course I have no problem with whoever wants to call themselves Christian, because as Jesus Himself said:
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Angie.
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Haq al Lugi
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: | I
I do not know too much about Mormonism, but from what Janet posts on WI it appears that they believe that Yahweh was one God and Elohim was another. Which actually sounds like Polytheism to me.
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I confess to knowing little myself. It shouldn't be hard to find out. You know, if Mormons are worshipping multiple Gods, it seems we would have heard of it many many many times. I always thought the big thing that separated them was the hierarchal nature of their core families, with the father/husband being the deciding vote on who gets into heaven. Nomesayin? |
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Magnacarta
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I know alot about Mormonism. As I stated in my opening post on WI, I was encouraged to "SEEK" in religion and I did the Mormon thing for 5 years. I went to the temple and witnessed the "sacred" ceremonies.
I can tell you that the basic Mormon belief is that Joseph Smith received a visitation from angels which led him to uncover the book of mormon along with the gift to translate them. These were given to the ancient peoples of the America's (The Nephites) who were also visited by Jesus after his resurrection. They bring greater descriptions of the levels of heaven and restore the Melchizedeck priesthood to its full authority. They believe fully that Joseph Smith was the last of the prophets and his word seals the testimony of the heavens (sound familiar?).
The book of Mormon does not oppose any of Jesus original teachings, but it was rejected because it ADDED more information.
The Mormon church organization is a hierarchy of lay persons, in each "ward" (area) the Bishop is elected by the Quorom of Elders to serve an average of 5 years.
Members serve in church positions which will enhance their spiritual development.
The lead prophet serves until death.
There is one other position which is a life calling, this is given to those who deliver the Patriarchal Blessing to all the faithful members. The Patriarchal Blessing is a laying on of hands to receive a message directly from God to you for personal revelation about your individual gifts, strengths, weaknesses and purpose in the perfecting of the saints in what we are now living in, the "latter days" or end times.
It is a church with a strong patriarchal order, but women are given many opportunities to serve the Church Community in a leadership capacity. The Women's Relief Society is the sisterhood, and there is a President of the Women who works closely with the Prophet in setting forth goals each year for the Sister's spiritual lessons.
There is a strong push for all young faithful saints (they are also known as the Latter Day Saints) to serve a 18 month (females) to 24 month (males) missionary service. They usually do this after graduating high school. They have a wonderful community system which provides for the needy and regular visits for familys from church members, and for women from other women, for fellowship, brothership and counselling.
They believe in being prepared for disaster and have been known to contribute in disaster relief in communities, not unlike the red cross, to non-members. But the storehouse is for the faithful and each member is encouraged to be prepared and to show wise stewardship over their resources in life. They practice the tithe. They fast one Sunday of each month and give what the cost of the meals would be as an additional offering of charity to the poor. They believe in Baptism and all the other Covenants taught by Jesus.
In essense, they are Christians who believe in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, but they simply believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet for these specific times, given to deliver a "restored" message of truth (one that includes the lost tribes of Israel) to the world in the end times, as a great preparation for what is coming...Jesus return and the end of this "dispensation" of time on earth.
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Haq al Lugi
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:54 am Post subject: |
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| Magnacarta wrote: | I know alot about Mormonism.
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Indeed you do. Thanks for the lesson. I remember from the History Channel about the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith received it directly from God, with its leaves of gold. Other people saw it, and testifyied to its existence. Smith copied it, then returned it.
Pretty impressive credentials, no? |
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Haq al Lugi
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| How would you relate this theory to the Following of Santa? |
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Haq al Lugi
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| And yet, He managed to start a full-fledged religion, complete with traditions, cremonies, and special benefits. |
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: | Did God literally beget Jesus? The answer for us Christians is yes. Jesus was not created but begotten. He had no human father, only a human mother. So the Father who begot Him is God. Jesus often referred to God as MY Father. The only way we can become true sons and daughters of God is to be born again from above of water and of the Spirit just as Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:5. How are we born of the Spirit? ONLY THROUGH Jesus Christ who came to make this possible. When we believe in Jesus, we are Baptised through water. Through water Baptism we are united to Christ's death for the remission of our sins.We are washed clean by His death and our sins are removed.
As to the word for "son" in the New Testament, generally the word uihos is used but in Acts 3:26, a completely different word pais is used which can be translated in various ways. This is what Strong's word dictionary says:
G3816
παῖς
pais
paheece
Perhaps from G3817; a boy (as often beaten with impunity), or (by analogy) a girl, and (generally) a child; specifically a slave or servant (especially a minister to a king; and by eminence to God): - child, maid (-en), (man) servant, son, young man.
That is why it is sometimes translated as son and sometimes as servant. . . |
Yes exactly, I saw that in my e-Sword search engine too. It is important to know that what exactly the author meant when he used the Word “pais”. As we know that Act’s author is Paul. Now, translation of the word “pais” according to KJV comes in 3:13 & 3:26 and Acts 4:25 differently for different people, and at other places usage of “uihos” by the same author is translated as Son
KJV Act 4:25 Who by1223 the mouth4750 of thy4675 servant3816 David1138 hast said2036 Why2444 did the heathen1484 rage5433 and2532 the people2992 imagine3191 vain things?2756
RSV Act 4:25 Who has said, by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David your servant, Why are the nations so violently moved, and why are the thoughts of the people so foolish
KJV here translates “pais” as a Servant in David’s case, so does the RSV..
KJV Act 3:13 The3588 God2316 of Abraham,11 and2532 of Isaac,2464 and2532 of Jacob,2384 the3588 God2316 of our2257 fathers,3962 hath glorified1392 his848 Son3816 Jesus;2424 whom3739 ye5210 delivered up,3860 and2532 denied720 him846 in the presence2596, 4383 of Pilate,4091 when he1565 was determined2919 to let him go.630
RSV Act 3:13 The God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, has given glory to his servant Jesus; whom you gave up, turning your backs on him, when Pilate had made the decision to let him go free.
Now the same Word “pais” in KJV for Jesus is translated as “Son”, RSV translates it as G3816 a “Servant”.
KJV Act 3:26 Unto you5213 first4412 God,2316 having raised up450 his848 Son3816 Jesus,2424 sent649 him846 to bless2127 you,5209 in turning away654 every one1538 of you from575
his5216 iniquities.4189
RSV Act 3:26 To you, first, God sent his servant, blessing you by turning every one of you from his sins.
Same here, “pias” as a Son in KJV and a Servant in RSV for Jesus.
Also, see this
KJV Act 4:27 For1063 of1909 a truth225 against1909 thy4675 holy40 child3816 Jesus,2424 whom3739 thou hast anointed,5548 both5037 Herod,2264 and2532 Pontius4194 Pilate,4091 with4862 the Gentiles,1484 and2532 the people2992 of Israel,2474 were gathered together,4863
RSV Act 4:27 For, truly, in this town, against your holy servant, Jesus, who was marked out by you as Christ, Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, came together,
KJV Act 4:30 By(4571) stretching forth1614 thine4675 hand5495 to1519 heal;2392 and2532 that signs4592 and2532 wonders5059 may be done1096 by1223 the3588 name3686 of thy4675 holy40 child3816 Jesus.2424
RSV Act 4:30 While your hand is stretched out to do works of mercy; so that signs and wonders may be done through the name of your holy servant Jesus.
Now “pias” for Jesus is translated as “Child” in KJV, and RSV translates it as a Servant again. While the author used the Word “teknon” in Acts 7:5 for child.5043 and RSV translates it so.
KJV Act 7:5 And2532 he gave1325 him846 none3756 inheritance2817 in1722 it, no,846 not3761 so much as to set his foot on:968, 4228 yet2532 he promised1861 that he would give1325 it846 to him846 for1519 a possession,2697 and2532 to his846 seed4690 after3326 him,846 when as yet he846 had5607 no3756 child.5043
RSV Act 7:5 And God gave him no heritage in it, not even enough to put his foot on: but he gave him an undertaking that he would give it to him and to his children after him, though he had no child at that time
Now the word “Begotten”, you will be surprised to know that in the Whole RSV (BBE) the Word begotten is no where, not even for a single time.
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
You see, “born” & in the bracket the Translators of KJV are falsely adding the word born, begotten or Child, the exact translation is “Only”.
G3441
μόνος
monos
mon'-os
Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves.
G1096
γίνομαι
ginomai
ghin'-om-ahee
A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought.
Nowhere child or begotten in mentioned.
KJV Joh 3:16 For1063 God2316 so3779 loved25 the3588 world,2889 that5620 he gave1325 his848 only begotten3439 Son,5207 that2443 whosoever3956 believeth4100 in1519 him846 should not3361 perish,622 but235 have2192 everlasting166 life.2222
RSV Joh 3:16 For God had such love for the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever has faith in him may not come to destruction but have eternal life.
The term “begotten”, this literally in Greek is
G1080
γεννάω
gennaō
ghen-nah'-o
From a variation of G1085; to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively to regenerate: - bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
You see Angelina, what blasphemy those translators of KJV have committed, what a dangerous game these Translators are playing what a mis-use of Word.. GodForbid!!!! Believe me I never saw these things before but just today when you mentioned g3816, I never checked those numbers, I had no idea what they were about. I always have wondered that how Jehovah’s Witness claimed 50,000 errors in KJV. It also reminds me a quotation by George Bernard Shaw, he said “The Most Dangerous Book on earth keep it under lock and key”. We have just checked these few words and few chapters, there is a lot going on in the other portion. There is nothing in the Greek scriptures such as Begotten. Jesus’s birth was a Miracle and by the Will of God. Overshadow doesn’t mean GOD had sex with Mary (GODFORBID) but GOD willed and Mary found her life with a Child in her Womb. Yes Allah has given birth to the World, but the Word Birth doesn’t necessarily mean as Begotten us, He created us, He is the source of our creation. In Urdu, the Word “Peda” goes for birth, and since childhood I hear this sentence from my Mother “Allah ne hamein Peda kia hay” in Urdu. Means GOD has given birth to us. My Mother is a Muslim and she never meant it literally as GOD has begotten us, But GOD has given birth to Mankind, means He’s the source and He created us. Peda stands for (The Urdu word Peda is always translated in Arabic as “Khalaqna” means Created. You see, these Words and their meanings can cause a Big Trouble. How an Arab Mom will say that “Allahu Khalaqna”, which means Allah has created us. Same meanings but different Word and can taken oppositely and can trouble, Translations can cause a big problem if the Original source and the real meanings are not clear. The same happened in KJV, Greek scriptures doesn’t say GOD has begotten Jesus, but while translating it into English, the Word “Begotten” which was maybe used as “Created” took the thing too far, to blasphemy. Jesus pbuh referred GOD as his Father, and everyone else’s Father as well, the same way he said that others also can be Sons and Daughters of the Father by following his Will. Jesus constantly referred himself as “Banei adam”, Son of Man as well. Still, do we believe Jesus was a Son of Man? If Words have any meanings, even a blind man would also say that This Guy says He is a Son of Man which means a Son of Man. But He wasn’t a Son of Man, He was Son of Mary (and She was a Son of Man, Mankind), Jesus simply by calling himself a “Son of Man” meant that He’s of Adam’s Type, Banei Adam, He didn’t mean that He has a Father Which is a Man, and the same goes for “Father”, whenever he called GOD a Father he didn’t meant literally a Father but a his Creator. This is also noticeable that Jesus never mentioned himself as a “Miraculously born” as far as I know in the Whole Gospels of Mark, John, Luk and Math. Am I right? Neither he ever mentioned his Mother as something “Special”, as Catholics call her “Mother of God”. To him she was just another Good believer.
Rev22:18-19 “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”.
Translators of KJV had indeed added many false things into the scriptures. If you really ask me, those Translators deserve no Mercy but an Eternal punishment for misguiding others, as Paul said, “plagues”.
| sraphine973 wrote: |
Interesting that you should mention Melchizedek. Scholars believe that Melchizedek was a prefigurement of the Christ.
The appearance of this mysterious Melchizedek in Genesis is rather intriguing. In the OT he is only mentioned in Genesis 14, and in Psalms 110:4
The reason that Hebrews says that he had no father and mother is because nothing much is known about him, except that:
He was a non-Israelite Priest-King.
He has unknown origins, nobody knows when he was born when he died and who his parents were, and so he seems to be an "eternal" figure.
His name means King of Peace (because Genesis says that he was King of Salem which means peace) and King of Righteousness (which is the literal meaning of Melchizedek). BTW, Salem is identified with Jerusalem.
That he was a Priest of the Most High God at a time when no one seemed to know the one true God any more, except Abram who had been called by Him.
He blesses Abram and gives him bread and wine, in the same way that Jesus gave bread and wine to His discipes.
Abram gives Melchizedek tithes. Under the Mosaic Law, God is given tithes.
It could be that the author of Hebrews is making an allegorical comparison between Melchizedek and Christ. The key word in Hebrews7 is verse 3 which uses the Greek word aphomoioo which means to "assimilate closely" or "to make like",̄which seems to be saying that Melchizedek resembles the Son of God, but it's unclear in what sense this is meant. What it appears to be saying is that Melchizedech is a divine mediator, immortal and pre-existent High Priest just as Jesus Christ is.
It is interesting that Philo of Alexandria (Leg. All. III 79-82; cf. Congr. 99 and Abr. 235) treats Melchizedek allegorically and tells us that as high priest, he represents Reason (Greek LOGOS)
We remember that in the Gospels, especially John's Gospel Christ is called the Word (Logos)of God. . |
I really don’t know who was Melchizedka, he just seem to be superior and special than Jesus pbuh. Without a Father without a Mother, He can very easily claim Divinity, In short, he (as mentioned) fulfills the Qualities of an Eternal Personality don’t you think? I don’t think the Hebrew said He has no Father and a mother just because it’s unknown. Hebrews says “His life has no start and no end. Being made like the Son of God”, Hebrews believe in his existence when it said that he is Made. Also, Hebrew says that “Melchizedka met Abraham when he was still in the lions of his Father”. Melchizedka is a candidate of Divinity whoever he was and more deserving than Jesus pbuh. I don’t believe Jesus anywhere in the Whole Bible claimed Divinity.
| sraphine973 wrote: |
The Douay Rheims is a Catholic Translation of the Bible. But you can also get Catholic editions of the NAB and other translations. Just look for ones that say "Catholic edition" or " with Deuterocanonicals if you want to read these books. There is a NAB (Catholic) here:
http://bibleresources.bible.com/bible_read.php
Depends on which Jews you are referring to.
Catholics have the books that were part of the Septuagint used by the Hellenistic Jews. These are also part of the Orthodox canon as well as that of the Ethiopian Jews today..
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/wilson/ant304/projects/projects97/kingp/books.of.the.canon.html
The Canon of Christian Scripture, as approved by the Catholic Church at the Council of Rome in A.D. 382 and reaffirmed at the Councils of Hippo in A.D. 393, Carthage in A.D. 397, II Nicæa in A.D. 787, Florence in A.D. 1442, Trent in A.D. 1546, Vatican I in A.D. 1870, and Vatican II in A.D. 1965, contains 46 books in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. The Councils of II Nicæa is recognized by Protestants as ecumenical councils. Protestants accept the New Testament Canon approved by these councils, however they reject inclusion of seven books of the Old Testament, favoring Luther's opinion of these books over that of the ecumenical councils.
Protestants hold to the books that Palestinian Jews believed were inspired.
Some Protestants still include these books in their Bible in a separate section but believe they are of historical importance but not inspired.
"It should be noted that protocanonical and deuterocanonical are modern terms, not having been used before the sixteenth century".
So do Catholics and Protestants believe in King James Version which contain all Books (I think?)?
It also says
The circumstances and manner in which these collections were definitely canonized, or adjudged to have a uniquely Divine and authoritative quality.
It is thus seen that canonicity is a correlative of inspiration, being the extrinsic dignity belonging to writings which have been officially declared as of sacred origin and authority.
Does it mean that the Collections and adjusment of these Books has something Divine authority in it? I'm not sure if I'm getting the exact meanings, Does it say that the Divine quality.. or the Holy Spirit decides the method of canonizing? Do you believe that the Church was authorized (By Holy spirit as they claim) to decide which Books shall be read and which not? or taken out of the Bible? Also, Do protestants believe the Other 7 removed Book to be the Word of God also?
The KJV does not contain all books as Catholic and Orthodox editions of the Bible do.
Catholics believe that only the Church has the authority to decide what is inspired and what is not. It was at the various Councils mentioned in my link above that this issue was looked at. If you look at that link it tells you which groups today (Christian and Jew) hold each book as canon.
As I mentioned before, some Protestants include the Deuterocanonicals (which they refer to by the term Apocrypha) in their Bibles , but do not consider them inspired and only value them for their historical value.
It is interesting to point out here that Jesus never argued with the Saducees or Pharisees about what books should be considered sacred. eg Whith the Saducees who only considered the 5 books of Moses as inspired and did not believe in the resurrection, He argued for the resurrection from the books they DID beleive in.(Matthew 22:23-33) . |
Jews also believe in different Torahs? I didn’t know that. I’m shocked, I didn’t know that Authorized Version (AV) also know as KJV was a Protestant Bible… I thought as KJV is a complete Bible. Well according to Paul, Protestants commit a gross sin for not believing in the other 7 Books,
Rev22:19 “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”.
Most disturbing is this the "Council" or any Church. Who has the right to choose what he wants form the Book of God and take away what he dislikes? As Luther. Using the Word “Apocrypha” itself I believe is insulting, it means “Doubtful Authority”. Protestants not just remove these Books from their Bibles but also condemn Catholics for this addition.
Now see this, KJV’s translators, I must say Fabricators also added verses to the chapters.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2016;&version=31;
Mark 16: 8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))
9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
You see Angelina.. GODFORBID! Astaghfirullah.. Woe to those Translators, Fabricators and betrayers.
I’m giving up reading any of these Catholic (Douay) or Protestant (KJV) Bibles now and going to get the Jehovah’s witnesses Bible (New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures).
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Westwind
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:32 am Post subject: |
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D2D, you've said quite a lot but, but what you don't realize is that the the understanding that Jesus is the son of God, part of the trinity, has existed since the beginning. It is not a 'misunderstanding' or misinterpretation.
You are doing exactly what you are accusing the translators of doing, namely interpreting things according to what you want, and not according to what the scriptures say in context.
Jesus spoke often of God as "my Father", and he wasn't talking about Joseph. His other teachings confirmed his identity. His resurrection confirmed his message, and his identity.
You are making the basic Muslim mistake of refusing to understand 'begotten' to mean exclusively created through physical union. It refers to his incarnation in human form. We are told clearly that through the Holy Spirit, Jesus was virgin born. Big clue there! If his mother was a virgin when she delivered the baby Jesus, then there was no physical union of any kind involved. Put it together, you have the eternal being we call the Son of God, supernaturally combined with a human body.
That is why he is considered to be fully deity, and fully man, a man with two natures. |
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sraphine973
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:56 am Post subject: |
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I’m giving up reading any of these Catholic (Douay) or Protestant (KJV) Bibles now and going to get the Jehovah’s witnesses Bible (New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures).
D2D, for heavens sake, any Bible but the New World Translation, PLEASE!!!! That is a really corrupt translation. The people who supposedly translated it weren't even scholars of Biblical Hebrew or Koine Greek.
I read many Bible translations, including the KJV. I find it helpful to compare different translations when dealing with difficult passages.
There is nothing really wrong with the KJV. And I think you can get many Bible translations with the Deuterocanonical/Apocrypha books. It is just that the only online one I know of is the NAB.
It is just that Protestants do not consider them "inspired" but that they are helpful for understanding the history of the Intertestamental period.
You cannot really criticise Protestant for choosing to adhere to a different list of books they consider canonical. After all, as I showed you previously, different groups of Jews held to different Canon, and Jesus left no list of books from the OT to let us know which ones HE definitely considered canon. All we know is that the Disciples and the Early Church used the Septuagint which contains these books, and there is evidence that when Jesus quotes from the OT in the Gospels, that it is from the Greek tanslation, the Septuagint. eg Isaiah 61:1 and Luke 4:18.
The different Jews did not have different Torahs. The Torah is the book of the Law, which is common to all Jews. Where they differ is which other books of the OT they consider canon. As I previously mentioned, Catholics follow the Tradition of the Early Church which used the Septuagint (the Greek OT) which contained the disputed books.
The words from Revelation 22 really cannot be applied here as the author John is specifically talking about the book of Revelation.
The bottom line here D2D, is that Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox ALL have EXACTLY the same books in the NT. It is only in the books of the OT that we differ, and this does not affect the doctrine about the Divinity of Christ at all.
I do not understand the point you are making about the words used for begotten, but Christianity understands Christ to be the one and only unique Son of God. Not created, of one essence/substance with the Father. As we say in the Nicene Creed:
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
Also it was not Paul who wrote Acts, it was St Luke, the same writer who wrote the Gospel according to Luke. Most scholars agree that the two were written by the same author. There is internal evidence of this as they are both addressed to Theophilus and Acts 1 indicates that it is a sequel to a previous work. The language and style of both books also tells us they were written by the same person.
Also a final point about Melchizedek.
Throughout the OT we have figures that appear that are foreshadowing Christ. Melchizedek is one of these. Jesus Christ is our great Melchizedek, our High Priest and mediator, Our King of Peace and our King of Righteousness. His priesthood is superior to that of the Levitical Priesthood because it is eternal. This is what the writer of Hebrews is saying.
Angie.
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Westwind wrote: | | D2D, you've said quite a lot but, but what you don't realize is that the the understanding that Jesus is the son of God, part of the trinity, has existed since the beginning. It is not a 'misunderstanding' or misinterpretation. You are doing exactly what you are accusing the translators of doing, namely interpreting things according to what you want, and not according to what the scriptures say in context.. |
Westy my Freind, I beg you to show me where Trinity exists as you say since beginning. And If you ask me, I can quote you Christian Catholics Scholars with the statement admitting "The Concept of Trinity was not taught in the Old Testament".
According to Wikepedia, "Neither of the words "Trinity" nor "Triunity" appear in the Old Testament or New Testament. Various passages from both have been cited as supporting this doctrine, while other passages are cited as opposing it"
Formulation of the Doctrine
The most significant developments in articulating the doctrine of the Trinity took place in the 4th century, with a group of men known as the Theologians.[22] Although the earliest Church Fathers had affirmed the teachings of the Apostles, their focus was on their pastoral duties to the Church under the persecution of the Roman Empire.[22] Thus the early Fathers were largely unable to compose doctrinal treatises and theological expositions. With the relaxing of the persecution of the church during the rise of Constantine, the stage was set for ecumenical dialogue.[22]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Believe me Br. West, When you say that Trinity was taught since beginning or even in the Scriptures, I HIGHLY believe that You are INTENTIONALY Lying to Me.
| Westwind wrote: | | Jesus spoke often of God as "my Father", and he wasn't talking about Joseph. His other teachings confirmed his identity. His resurrection confirmed his message, and his identity. . |
Believe me, it is shocking that even in this 21st Century, You are proudly making this statement as Jesus called GOD my Father to prove that GOD was his Father.. Please Westwind, I'm not a fool and I have read the Bible very well. Let me make it clear, JOSEPH was not the Father of Jesus, neither He was the Husband of Mary when she gave birth to Jesus, I have proven that to you in My Thread "Jesus birth a Miracle?" at WI.
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12230&KW=birth
I'm even ashamed of giving the correct Biblical defination "MyFather" to a learned person like you. I with responsibility challenging you Br, Prove it to me that Jesus was GOD, or "Literally Begotten" Son of God from the Scriptures You read and I read. I will accept Christianity NOW! You have my words. Untill then, I believe you are Intentionaly lying to me for the sake of Argument. I'm shocked, even after reading what I have quoted above, still you are expecting me to listen and believe any of Christian Dogmas? Even after reading such CHEATING and Misguidness these Gospel translators were projecting and preaching? I must say, You have a Big heart.
Let me make it clear, I as a Muslim, Believe that JESUS peace be upon him was a Mightiest Prophet of GOD, A Messiah, Miraculously born, rose the Dead and healed Lepers and blind. I believe Jesus and Mary were blessed By God and No muslim is a Muslim if he rejects any of Christ's Miracle, or his True Identification.
| Westwind wrote: | You are making the basic Muslim mistake of refusing to understand 'begotten' to mean exclusively created through physical union. It refers to his incarnation in human form. We are told clearly that through the Holy Spirit, Jesus was virgin born. Big clue there! If his mother was a virgin when she delivered the baby Jesus, then there was no physical union of any kind involved. Put it together, you have the eternal being we call the Son of God, supernaturally combined with a human body.
That is why he is considered to be fully deity, and fully man, a man with two natures. |
Exactly, Your very own "Holy Spirit" told you that as you say, The Bible doesn't say that at all, I have proven that above. You said Put to Test and added the Word "Eternal being", See that is how those Translators of KJV played with Words by adding more "False" meanings to the Term. The Concept of Virgin birth does't mean "Eternal Being", YOU are ADDING this HERE to prove your Catholic Point. IT was nothing more than a Sign to the Children of Israel, I have proven that to you in the same Thread at WI "Jesus birth a Miracle?". It's useless to repeat all those things again.. I believe it's a Very Nobel and COurageous act to "AGREE" with your Critic, or a Well Wisher.
There is not a Single, I repeat, NOT A Singel "Direct Speaking" of Jesus in the Whole Bible where he claimed Divinity in ANY Manner. And, there is not a SINGLE claim left by the Christians at WI where they tried to convince others by taking the Verse out of Context to show that Jesus was claiming Divinity, I have answered all of them where every Honest man will agree.
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Deserves2Die
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Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: |
D2D, for heavens sake, any Bible but the New World Translation, PLEASE!!!! That is a really corrupt translation. The people who supposedly translated it weren't even scholars of Biblical Hebrew or Koine Greek.
I read many Bible translations, including the KJV. I find it helpful to compare different translations when dealing with difficult passages.
There is nothing really wrong with the KJV. And I think you can get many Bible translations with the Deuterocanonical/Apocrypha books. It is just that the only online one I know of is the NAB.
It is just that Protestants do not consider them "inspired" but that they are helpful for understanding the history of the Intertestamental period.
You cannot really criticise Protestant for choosing to adhere to a different list of books they consider canonical. After all, as I showed you previously, different groups of Jews held to different Canon, and Jesus left no list of books from the OT to let us know which ones HE definitely considered canon. All we know is that the Disciples and the Early Church used the Septuagint which contains these books, and there is evidence that when Jesus quotes from the OT in the Gospels, that it is from the Greek tanslation, the Septuagint. eg Isaiah 61:1 and Luke 4:18.
The different Jews did not have different Torahs. The Torah is the book of the Law, which is common to all Jews. Where they differ is which other books of the OT they consider canon. As I previously mentioned, Catholics follow the Tradition of the Early Church which used the Septuagint (the Greek OT) which contained the disputed books.
The words from Revelation 22 really cannot be applied here as the author John is specifically talking about the book of Revelation.
The bottom line here D2D, is that Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox ALL have EXACTLY the same books in the NT. It is only in the books of the OT that we differ, and this does not affect the doctrine about the Divinity of Christ at all.
I do not understand the point you are making about the words used for begotten, but Christianity understands Christ to be the one and only unique Son of God. Not created, of one essence/substance with the Father. As we say in the Nicene Creed:
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
Also it was not Paul who wrote Acts, it was St Luke, the same writer who wrote the Gospel according to Luke. Most scholars agree that the two were written by the same author. There is internal evidence of this as they are both addressed to Theophilus and Acts 1 indicates that it is a sequel to a previous work. The language and style of both books also tells us they were written by the same person.
Also a final point about Melchizedek.
Throughout the OT we have figures that appear that are foreshadowing Christ. Melchizedek is one of these. Jesus Christ is our great Melchizedek, our High Priest and mediator, Our King of Peace and our King of Righteousness. His priesthood is superior to that of the Levitical Priesthood because it is eternal. This is what the writer of Hebrews is saying.
Angie. |
Angelina.. I really don't know what to say... Believe me I'm afraid of reading any of English Translation of the Bible now...RSV is absolutely giving us another Picture. I tell you, I always used Psalms 2:7 to show that GOD has begotten David as well So Jesus is not the Only Son, It doesn't mean that I have actually believed that GOD Begets.. GODFORBID. I have always used the Context to make my Christian readers understand that begotten doesn't mean literally begotten, but Spiritually. And yesturday when I read what I have shown you above in KJV, I was so ashamed of Myself for quoting the Word "Begotten" which never existed in the Greek Scriptures..... I had NO Idea of MARK 16 actually ends at 8 and falsely fabricated by KJV translators till 20.. Angelina, I believe thses Gospel writers tried to Play with me, as I'm student of their Bible and purchased it for me, They cheated me. You have to admit that Angelina please, I highly believe that You are not a Blind Follower. KJV is playing with Words Angelina, RSV is recognised by biblegateway which exposes it all. Also, I have shown you the How they are putting the Wrong meanings of Words like "Pais" and "Teknon" differently for Jesus and differently for others. RSV is just confirming what I have found in comparing KJV's Translation with KJV+
Ok if not New World Translation, you tell me where shall I match KJV with the Correct Greek Scriptures? Shall I go for Jevoha's Witnesess Translation of Greek Scriptures? I don't know who to Trust...
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Westwind
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: |
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OK, here's how this works. The trinitarian concept of God existed since the beginning, but it wasn't revealed by any prophet before Jesus. There is no single verse where Jesus says "OK, God is a trinity and I'm part of it." But there are several verses throughout the NT, where characteristics of God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus are described. They must be all true or all wrong. The apostles, who where with Jesus, confirmed to us that these characteristics are true.
As for Jesus not saying he is equal to the father, it's right there in John chapter 10:
27. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30. "I and the Father are one."
31. The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?"
33. The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
34. Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, `I SAID, YOU ARE GODS'?
35. "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
36. do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?
37. "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me;
38. but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
Notice the blue verse, where the Jews understand the words of Jesus. Notice Jesus did not correct them for misunderstanding. Notice Jesus knew exactly what his words mean. Jesus is the son of God. Jesus is equal to deity, therefore Jesus is God.[/b] |
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Westwind
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:31 am Post subject: |
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| Deserve2Die wrote: |
Believe me Br. West, When you say that Trinity was taught since beginning or even in the Scriptures, I HIGHLY believe that You are INTENTIONALY Lying to Me. |
First of all, what would I gain by intentionally lying? I'm not the first Christian to believe this doctrine. There are many excellent books that address the concept of the trinity. Neither am I to take teachings about God lightly. I've spent a lot of time reading and studying what the early church said, and what the Bible teaches. Your contradictions do not carry the arguement, when weighed against 2000 years of Christianity. You are interpreting Christianity according to Islam, not according to Christianity.
| Westwind wrote: | | Jesus spoke often of God as "my Father", and he wasn't talking about Joseph. His other teachings confirmed his identity. His resurrection confirmed his message, and his identity. . |
| D2D wrote: | Believe me, it is shocking that even in this 21st Century, You are proudly making this statement as Jesus called GOD my Father to prove that GOD was his Father.. Please Westwind, I'm not a fool and I have read the Bible very well. Let me make it clear, JOSEPH was not the Father of Jesus, neither He was the Husband of Mary when she gave birth to Jesus, I have proven that to you in My Thread "Jesus birth a Miracle?" at WI.
http://whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12230&KW=birth |
I'm going to go with the teachings that have been handed down to us in the form of the scriptures, and the writings of the early church. They contradict you, and Mohammad. Mohammad claimed they corrupted the scriptures, yet he gives no evidence at all. I'm to believe such claims without evidence? That shocks me.
| D2D wrote: | | I'm even ashamed of giving the correct Biblical defination "MyFather" to a learned person like you. I with responsibility challenging you Br, Prove it to me that Jesus was GOD, or "Literally Begotten" Son of God from the Scriptures You read and I read. I will accept Christianity NOW! You have my words. Untill then, I believe you are Intentionaly lying to me for the sake of Argument. I'm shocked, even after reading what I have quoted above, still you are expecting me to listen and believe any of Christian Dogmas? |
D2D, I believe you want to correctly understand Christian doctrine. If you really, really, want to know who Jesus is, I would ask you to ask Him. He will reveal himself to you.
| D2D wrote: | | Even after reading such CHEATING and Misguidness these Gospel translators were projecting and preaching? I must say, You have a Big heart. |
...and a small brain, you are probably thinking! Again, if you want to know the real Jesus, ask Him. That's what I did.
| D2D wrote: | | Let me make it clear, I as a Muslim, Believe that JESUS peace be upon him was a Mightiest Prophet of GOD, A Messiah, Miraculously born, rose the Dead and healed Lepers and blind. I believe Jesus and Mary were blessed By God and No muslim is a Muslim if he rejects any of Christ's Miracle, or his True Identification. |
Then you have to ask why is it that what Jesus taught to be the final salvation for all of mankind, is replaced by something so alien to the words of Jesus? We must believe we have the words of Jesus, because as I said before, Muslims have no evidence that they are not. All Islam can honestly say, is that Jesus and Islam contradict each other.
| Westwind wrote: | You are making the basic Muslim mistake of refusing to understand 'begotten' to mean exclusively created through physical union. It refers to his incarnation in human form. We are told clearly that through the Holy Spirit, Jesus was virgin born. Big clue there! If his mother was a virgin when she delivered the baby Jesus, then there was no physical union of any kind involved. Put it together, you have the eternal being we call the Son of God, supernaturally combined with a human body.
That is why he is considered to be fully deity, and fully man, a man with two natures. |
| D2D wrote: | | Exactly, Your very own "Holy Spirit" told you that as you say, The Bible doesn't say that at all, I have proven that above. You said Put to Test and added the Word "Eternal being", See that is how those Translators of KJV played with Words by adding more "False" meanings to the Term. The Concept of Virgin birth does't mean "Eternal Being", YOU are ADDING this HERE to prove your Catholic Point. IT was nothing more than a Sign to the Children of Israel, I have proven that to you in the same Thread at WI "Jesus birth a Miracle?". It's useless to repeat all those things again.. I believe it's a Very Nobel and COurageous act to "AGREE" with your Critic, or a Well Wisher. |
The Bible does say that. The scriptures are there, and they are in agreement through the ages. Ask yourself this: If Christianity is built on such poor understanding, why has it lasted longer than Islam? We didn't change our scriptures over time. They are the same. The teachings have all been challenged before, and they have stood the test. Christianity has lasted because Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
| D2D wrote: | | There is not a Single, I repeat, NOT A Singel "Direct Speaking" of Jesus in the Whole Bible where he claimed Divinity in ANY Manner. And, there is not a SINGLE claim left by the Christians at WI where they tried to convince others by taking the Verse out of Context to show that Jesus was claiming Divinity, I have answered all of them where every Honest man will agree. |
You have answered with your best understanding, but your understanding is incomplete. And every Honest man will agree, when there is more to understand, then what you know now, is incomplete.
Ask Jesus. He can answer your questions. |
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Deserves2Die
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Joined: 28 Apr 2007
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Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Brother West, Jesus pbuh didn't revealed anything to me yet. Where is my Salvation? I'm not trying to make fun of anyone but... It doesn't work this way. I have to judge it through his Biblical Words, if I really want to learn Christianity. Church is not infallible, I cannot agree if a Church is teaching me against its own Book. When I joined WI, as I said, That was the First Time I read the Whole Bible. My First post was
"Jesus pbuh will come in his Second coming and Will Break the Cross, Imposs the Jizya and Kill the Pigs"
A Christian freind laughed & recommended E-Sword Electronic Bible to have a proper introduction of Jesus & Christianity. She found my Posts Funny. She asked me to read the Bible before posting for Jesus pbuh.
I'm sorry but that is what I learned from this Book. I don't want to be blamed for not grasping the real christianity. If the Bible indeed teaches something, that is what it taught me Honestly. The very own Biblical Criteria "Use it for Doctrine, Correction and Instruction". I didn't found your Customs and Doctrines Corrected by the Bible, believe me. I guess, My Salvation is not in Jesus's Hand because if it was, I have given my Life to this Book, I ate Bible, I slept Bible, Day and night I spent reading this Book, My Eyes got hurt. Doctor said I have to go through a Laser Operation because of doing too much study on Computer. If Christian customs could save me, I would have found the Bible giving me signals for it, but no it didn't. Believe me I'm not of Blind Faith, I cannot believe something without proof. Whenever I opened the Bible, I found your own Jesus, your Own Bible accusing your Customs and Doctrines, and believe me, I found christians rejecting their own bible.
I get angry, I get stressed.. I be disrespectful, I get fedup. Have you ever considered why? I swear, I don't hate anyone, I'm not a Cruel person, People around I live don't believe this about me.. I confess openly, I take these Internet discussions VERY Serious. When I knew about Mark 16, which ends at 16:8 in Greek Scriptures, but in KJV it ended at 16:20, Believe me I was so upset, how some one who knows this can believe in these Verses??? How??... I believe there are real people at the other side posting their beliefs to me. Believe me, When I see blind faith and Hypocrisy, I get angry, believe me, I can't sleep sometimes, I keep on thinking and thinking about people I debate with.. One of us is Wrong indeed, We both can't be right and be that different.
I don't know what to say further but.. First Time in my whole Internet period, I shared with some one what exactly I think and Believe. I hope you'll understand me.
Thanks for reading
D2D
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sraphine973
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 805
Location: Australia
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Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Deserves2Die wrote: | Brother West, Jesus pbuh didn't revealed anything to me yet. Where is my Salvation? I'm not trying to make fun of anyone but... It doesn't work this way. I have to judge it through his Biblical Words, if I really want to learn Christianity. Church is not infallible, I cannot agree if a Church is teaching me against its own Book. When I joined WI, as I said, That was the First Time I read the Whole Bible. My First post was
"Jesus pbuh will come in his Second coming and Will Break the Cross, Imposs the Jizya and Kill the Pigs"
A Christian freind laughed & recommended E-Sword Electronic Bible to have a proper introduction of Jesus & Christianity. She found my Posts Funny. She asked me to read the Bible before posting for Jesus pbuh.
I'm sorry but that is what I learned from this Book. I don't want to be blamed for not grasping the real christianity. If the Bible indeed teaches something, that is what it taught me Honestly. The very own Biblical Criteria "Use it for Doctrine, Correction and Instruction". I didn't found your Customs and Doctrines Corrected by the Bible, believe me. I guess, My Salvation is not in Jesus's Hand because if it was, I have given my Life to this Book, I ate Bible, I slept Bible, Day and night I spent reading this Book, My Eyes got hurt. Doctor said I have to go through a Laser Operation because of doing too much study on Computer. If Christian customs could save me, I would have found the Bible giving me signals for it, but no it didn't. Believe me I'm not of Blind Faith, I cannot believe something without proof. Whenever I opened the Bible, I found your own Jesus, your Own Bible accusing your Customs and Doctrines, and believe me, I found christians rejecting their own bible.
I get angry, I get stressed.. I be disrespectful, I get fedup. Have you ever considered why? I swear, I don't hate anyone, I'm not a Cruel person, People around I live don't believe this about me.. I confess openly, I take these Internet discussions VERY Serious. When I knew about Mark 16, which ends at 16:8 in Greek Scriptures, but in KJV it ended at 16:20, Believe me I was so upset, how some one who knows this can believe in these Verses??? How??... I believe there are real people at the other side posting their beliefs to me. Believe me, When I see blind faith and Hypocrisy, I get angry, believe me, I can't sleep sometimes, I keep on thinking and thinking about people I debate with.. One of us is Wrong indeed, We both can't be right and be that different.
I don't know what to say further but.. First Time in my whole Internet period, I shared with some one what exactly I think and Believe. I hope you'll understand me.
Thanks for reading
D2D |
D2D I feel your frustration. We are not understanding each other because in a manner of speaking we are speaking a different language. And I don't mean English. Your English is very good. But we approach scripture, and God differently.
Ask yourself this question. Don't tell me, I don't want to know the answer, it is strictly between you and God:
Do you really want to know God and no one else? Or do you simply want to prove that your version of God is correct and everybody else is wrong? Ask yourself this in your heart. You cannot pretend to God He knows your heart.
Now if you told God that all you want to do is to know Him, ask Him to lead you by His Spirit.
Our human intellect is flawed. It will only get us so far in trying to understand the things of God. You have to allow God's Spirit to speak to your spirit. God is Spirit and He speaks to us by His Spirit.
SO how do you believe that you will learn everything about God by your human intellect?
Forget about the Bible and the Quran for the moment.
Try to think back to a time before God wrote any books.
If you were say, someone like Abraham, how would you sense the presence of God?
Do you really believe that the prophets always heard God as an audible voice?
Think of the Prophets who heard God through dreams and visions and an INNER inaudible voice
The Hebrew word for "hear" is shâma‛ really means to hear attentively and obey. That is where the Shema comes from :"Hear O Israel..."
Hearing God is often obeying in response to that quiet inner voice.
Have you ever wondered why in the NT, the very ones who knew the scriptures better than anyone else, did not even recognise Jesus as a prophet? Why do you suppose Jesus had the harshest words to say to these people? OUTWARDLY they obeyed the Laws of Moses, they made a great big show of it, but Jesus calls them hypocrites because they follow the LETTTER of the law rather than the SPIRIT of the law, which was to look after the widows and orphans. That is what Matthew 23 is about.
In John 5:39 Jesus rebukes the teachers of the Law because they thought that the scriptures imparted eternal life:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
John 5:39-42 (KJV)
Matthew Henry's Commentary says this about these verses:
The Jews considered that eternal life was revealed to them in their Scriptures, and that they had it, because they had the word of God in their hands. Jesus urged them to search those Scriptures with more diligence and attention. "Ye do search the Scriptures," and ye do well to do so. They did indeed search the Scriptures, but it was with a view to their own glory. It is possible for men to be very studious in the letter of the Scriptures, yet to be strangers to its power. Or, "Search the Scriptures," and so it was spoken to them in the nature of an appeal. Ye profess to receive and believe the Scripture, let that be the judge. It is spoken to us as advising or commanding all Christians to search the Scriptures. Not only read them, and hear them, but search them; which denotes diligence in examining and studying them. We must search the Scriptures for heaven as our great end; For in them ye think ye have eternal life. We must search the Scriptures for Christ, as the new and living Way, that leads to this end.
I think you need some help in understanding the Bible. Try referring to a commentary as you read the Bible.
You can find Matthew Henry's Commentary and 2 others on the Bible here:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php
Or better still, I came across this site recently.You can download Bible Explorer here, which contains the KJV with Matthew Henry's Commentary and lots of other stuff. It allows you to read the Bible along with the Commentary alongside, and you can do a lot more with it than eSword:
http://www.download.com/Bible-Explorer/3000-2135_4-10564113.html
See how you go.
Angie.
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.....but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.(Joshua 24:15) |
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Deserves2Die
WK Shurah Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: | D2D I feel your frustration. We are not understanding each other because in a manner of speaking we are speaking a different language. And I don't mean English. Your English is very good. But we approach scripture, and God differently.
Ask yourself this question. Don't tell me, I don't want to know the answer, it is strictly between you and God:
Do you really want to know God and no one else? Or do you simply want to prove that your version of God is correct and everybody else is wrong? Ask yourself this in your heart. You cannot pretend to God He knows your heart.. |
Thank you for understanding Angie. Hugs.
But I really want to let you know Angie. THIS, is TRUE! I admit. I believe My understanding according to My Version (Islamic) of God is RIGHT! BUT, I don't believe your Version of GOD is Wrong, I believe your Understanding of GOD is wrong.
Angie, I have never asked a Christian or any one to believe my Version and understandings of God. Infact, i have never quoted a Quranic Verse to back my belief while talking to Jews & Christians. Why shall I quote Quran when they don't believe in it? I believe in Questioning, reasoning and backing with Proofs and evidences. I have always looked & expressed the Common Terms We have in Muslim and Christian Version of God. Whatever I say about God, it's not I who says, I project The Quranic understandings of God. Islamic understandings of God is not limited to a Specific Mosque, or an Organization but Quran shortly and clearly tells us in 4 Lines "Say He is Allah, The One. Allah, the eternally Besought of all! He begetteth not nor was begotten. And there is none comparable unto Him". And yes I admit, this is what I exactly believe about God, Strongly, but not Blindly. I admit, I ask others for their Versions & understandings of God to see how far they are right, or if I'm wrong? If I have blindly believed in Quranic Version of God, I would have never asked others for their Version of God, infact I would never have talked to them regarding this Since I believe I'm Right. I believe in giving others a proper chance to prove their Version of God. And Yes I admit, I don't believe 2+2 makes a 5, No, I believe One of us is Wrong indeed. I will never ask anyone to believe in my Spiritual experience unless I can't back my claim with evidence.
| sraphine973 wrote: |
Now if you told God that all you want to do is to know Him, ask Him to lead you by His Spirit. Our human intellect is flawed. It will only get us so far in trying to understand the things of God. You have to allow God's Spirit to speak to your spirit. God is Spirit and He speaks to us by His Spirit. SO how do you believe that you will learn everything about God by your human intellect? |
I think since I have almost Investigated the Whole Theologies of Jewish, Christians and Muslim concept of God, To know God, Still GOD needs a Signal from Me? He knows I'm looking for Him. Praying to him. Still God needs me to Allow him? I start my Day with the name of One True God, I end my Day with his Name, Still God thinks I'm worse than an Athiest who doesn't seeks his Creator? As I said, I already have a belief, which I can prove right, through strong evidence, common sense and Logic. Still, If I was wrong in believing these 4 line Quranic description of GOD, Why God has forsaken me? If indeed the Quranic decription is wrong, Why is God intentionally leading me to astray? All other spiritual talks are just talks Angelina, We live in a real World. There are Trillions of People who Worship and seek GOD every day, not the Christian God. If the Concept of God can't be grasped through the Human mind but only when we let the Spirit of God to Talk to us, Whatelse you think these People are doing other than asking God to Help them, for Guidance? Take my Example, I pray 5 Times a Day and recite this statement 17 Times
"Show us the straight path. The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray"
What else GOD wants me to say? How else GOD will believe I'm seeking his True existance? his True Nature? his True Concept?? I believe in Practice, not talks. So not just by talks, I seek GOD with Practice every day. Still if hes leading me to astray, that is what He has decided for me. It's not my mistake, I'm innocent.
| sraphine973 wrote: | Forget about the Bible and the Quran for the moment.
Try to think back to a time before God wrote any books.
If you were say, someone like Abraham, how would you sense the presence of God?
Do you really believe that the prophets always heard God as an audible voice?
Think of the Prophets who heard God through dreams and visions and an INNER inaudible voice
The Hebrew word for "hear" is shâma‛ really means to hear attentively and obey. That is where the Shema comes from :"Hear O Israel..."
Hearing God is often obeying in response to that quiet inner voice.. |
I absolutely agree! Hear means Obey as it says.
| sraphine973 wrote: | | Have you ever wondered why in the NT, the very ones who knew the scriptures better than anyone else, did not even recognise Jesus as a prophet? Why do you suppose Jesus had the harshest words to say to these people? OUTWARDLY they obeyed the Laws of Moses, they made a great big show of it, but Jesus calls them hypocrites because they follow the LETTTER of the law rather than the SPIRIT of the law, which was to look after the widows and orphans. That is what Matthew 23 is about.. |
Exactly, Jesus pbuh accused the Scribes and Phirasees for not Practicing what they believe and preach. That's why Jesus pbuh called them Hypocrites. Mathew 23 is a very Powerful and Strong chapter which accuses them Who calls themselves the Teachers but donot practice what they Teach.
Matthew 23
Seven Woes
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them
| sraphine973 wrote: | In John 5:39 Jesus rebukes the teachers of the Law because they thought that the scriptures imparted eternal life:
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
John 5:39-42 (KJV)
Matthew Henry's Commentary says this about these verses:
The Jews considered that eternal life was revealed to them in their Scriptures, and that they had it, because they had the word of God in their hands. Jesus urged them to search those Scriptures with more diligence and attention. "Ye do search the Scriptures," and ye do well to do so. They did indeed search the Scriptures, but it was with a view to their own glory. It is possible for men to be very studious in the letter of the Scriptures, yet to be strangers to its power. Or, "Search the Scriptures," and so it was spoken to them in the nature of an appeal. Ye profess to receive and believe the Scripture, let that be the judge. It is spoken to us as advising or commanding all Christians to search the Scriptures. Not only read them, and hear them, but search them; which denotes diligence in examining and studying them. We must search the Scriptures for heaven as our great end; For in them ye think ye have eternal life. We must search the Scriptures for Christ, as the new and living Way, that leads to this end.e. |
Absolutely! It was compulsory for a Jew of Jesus's Time to believe in him as a True Prophet sent by GOD And Still it is Complusory to Believe in Jesus pbuh while We believes in Moses pbuh and previous Scriptures. It is compulsory to believe in Every Prophet. Denying anyone of them means the denail of all. Jesus pbuh whenever showed any Miracle he said as recorded in John 11:42 "And I knew that thou hearest me always; but because of the people who stand about have I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me". Jesus wanted them to accept him as a Prophet sent by God. And to those Who believed in Jesus as a Prophet, Jesus peace be upon him showed them the Salvation, the Eternal life which was the Law. Exactly as James expressed later on "Work with Faith". As Jesus has been recorded saying to a Believer Who considered him his Master and asked for Eternal life in Math 19
16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? 21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. 24 And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven. 25 And when they had heard this, the disciples wondered very much, saying: Who then can be saved? 26 And Jesus beholding, said to them: With men this is impossible: but with God all things are possible. 27 Then Peter answering, said to him: Behold we have left all things, and have followed thee: what therefore shall we have? 28 And Jesus said to them: Amen, I say to you, that you, who have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the seat of his majesty, you also shall sit on twelve seats judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And every one that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall possess life everlasting. 30 And many that are first, shall be last: and the last shall be first.
Jesus peace be upon him asked him to Practice the Law if you consider me your Master. Jesus peace be upon him knew that He was a Hypocrite and He doesn't Obey & Love God. So Jesus asked him to prove his Love by giving all his Wealth to Poor, and He didn't argued for the Law but He left sad because Jesus asked him to give up his Wealth. So Jesus said a Rich man who is greedy with not enter the Heaven. Jesus didn't say the LAW can't save him, He said it's hard for a Rich man to give up his Wealth. In short, What the Young man did were "TALKS", no PRACTICE! So Peter said He follow Jesus and his Way and what He adopted for his Salvation, Rules of the Law. Jesus peacebeuponhim was not a Hypocrite (Godforbid), He practiced what he preached, and that was the Law.
| sraphine973 wrote: | I think you need some help in understanding the Bible. Try referring to a commentary as you read the Bible.
You can find Matthew Henry's Commentary and 2 others on the Bible here:
http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php
Or better still, I came across this site recently.You can download Bible Explorer here, which contains the KJV with Matthew Henry's Commentary and lots of other stuff. It allows you to read the Bible along with the Commentary alongside, and you can do a lot more with it than eSword:
http://www.download.com/Bible-Explorer/3000-2135_4-10564113.html
See how you go.
Angie. |
I will surely read this Commentary and InshAllah will let you know.
Thank you so much for your concern, Princess.
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Deserves2Die
WK Shurah Member
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 191
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Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| sraphine973 wrote: | Thanks D2D. I really think you are a good person who has a love for God.
What I want you to do when you read the Bible, is to not contrast it to the way you understand the Quran.
In fact it is best to take a completely fresh approach. Pretend that you are a new seeker searching for God for the very first time.
When you find your mind making comparisons to the way God speaks in the Quran, tell yourself that this is a different book and God is speaking to you in a different way.
Look beyond the obvious. For instance, when you read the Gospel of John, look carefully at how John uses the symbol of water throughout.
You as a person living in a desert country, should understand the symbol of water. How it means life. How it quenches thirst and cleanses and purifies us. See how John uses it to symbolise new spiritual life restored through God's Holy Spirit where there is spiritual dryness in us.
Angie. |
My pleasure
My Goodness, That is what exactly I was thinking last night. I asked myself was Angie telling me to Forget the Concept of God and start a New Journey to seek a God? A Fresh approach yes.
I shall admit, it's hard for one to brain wash all his memory and start again. I also like to add here, there are many Concepts & Versions of God through out the World since the Begining. Now in Hinduism, I once read a Hindu Scripture saying "God is One, not another, no, no, no, not al all" yet Hindus worship more than 300 Different Gods/HumanBeings/Animals/Objects. Ofcorse, not even for a Second I will agree with them. Why? I believe in Logic and Truth stands without error and confusion.
You know, I read the Bible, specially the New Testament. According to my Understandings, Christians take some of Jesus's Word literally while Jesus didn't meant them Literally. And Some of Jesus's Word they didn't take literally while Jesus meant them Literally. Now, To assure and check what Jesus meant literally, We have to see it in Context or make a Judgment on the Whole.
Ok let's forget Quranic Version of God. What is the Biblical Version of God? Since the NT is teaching us about the Divine Nature of God, I want you to help me where exactly the Divine Nature of God is defined.
And you are SOOOO Right.. Hell yeah I know what WATER means to us  ...
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sraphine973
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
Posts: 805
Location: Australia
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Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: |
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What you will notice when reading the Gospels is that Jesus often uses parables to teach the people about God's Kingdom,in terms that are familiar to them. So He speaks of fish to fishermen, wheat and weeds and good soil to farmers, and so on. But in all of these parables He reveals some truth about God and the Kingdom.
What you will also notice is that He always points to Himself in those lessons. He says.... "learn of me..." Mat.11:29.
What He says should not always be taken in a material sense, but He is always conveying a Spiritual truth. For instance, when He says in John; "I am the bread of life.." or "I am the good shepherd" or " I am the true Vine" or "I am the light of the world", He does not mean He is a loaf of bread or a great vine, but what He is saying is that He is true spiritual food, He is the source of spiritual nourishment and that He is the source of life for us whom He calls the branches.
So when Jesus says in John:
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:53-69 (KJV)
This saying was very hard for some to accept because they understood it carnally. They understood it in the sense that He was going to cut off bits of His flesh and they must eat. And Jews had an abhorrence of blood. They were forbidden it because in the OT they were told that the LIFE was in the blood. (Leviticus 17:11)
Not to get too much into the theology of this, so as not to confuse, what He was saying basically was that they must assimilate His whole life spiritually. That His life was the true life, the life of heaven. ie eternal life.
Angie.
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